Skeuomorphism is the easy way out • Hacker News Board

Re: Skeuomorphism is the easy way out

#21

Post by zevyoura » Wed, Sep 05, 2012, 11:01 PM UTC

eyevariety wrote: post #19

zevyoura wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"...a world of flat squares with Helvetica labels takes a whole lot more mental cycles to process than that beveled 3d button, and it always will." Do you have a citation for that? I'm genuinely interested in reading more about it, because it seems somewhat counter-intuitive. The idea that simpler shapes would be harder to process visually is very fascinating to me.

Its not that a simpler shape isn't easier to process, its that its harder to infer purpose when there is so little information (like in the case of Metro). A button is something that needs to be 'pressed' so it should look like it can be- and by doing so you understand that it is a button much faster. Donald Norman and Jakob Neilsen have long preached this and they have a bunch of info on affordances and why they wor…

Interesting, though I have to wonder if that's necessarily true; it seems that you could designate a button using only rectangles and solid colors in a way that would be clear and unambiguous (e.g. Google+'s buttons). Either way, interesting application of Norman's ideas of 'affordances.' DoET is a perennial favorite of mine.

Re: Skeuomorphism is the easy way out

#22

Post by simonrobb » Wed, Sep 05, 2012, 11:08 PM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #11

Skeumorphism is no more an "easy way out" than black Helvetica on a white background is an "easy way out". They can both be used appropriately, or used badly and in excess. The address book in OSX is an example of bad skeumorphism -- it's a fake book with pages that don't actually turn, trying to shoehorn "advanced" computer technology into a visual representation that doesn't work. It's a bad metaphor, a bad analogy…

I'd agree that the address book skeumorphism is a pretty terrible option - seems to be more about design bling than addressing usabiblity. OTOH the "head-shaking" of the OSX login window when you enter a bad password is some of the best skeumorphism I've seen, and yet there are no visual design elements (like putting ears on the window or something.)

Re: Skeuomorphism is the easy way out

#23

Post by thebigpicture » Wed, Sep 05, 2012, 11:08 PM UTC

comex wrote: post #20

thebigpicture wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But a floppy disk is not a metaphor. The metaphor is a "file" as a description for a series of electromagetic charges on a floppy disk. It is indeed interesting that children may likely interact with email before postal mail. But postal mail shows no signs of disappearing anytime soon. Probably not during your lifetime and the lifetime of your startup while you're acquiring a critical mass of users. Do you think it w…

I also started using radio buttons long before I learned that they were based on car radios, and once I did so I didn't suddenly start thinking of the buttons as metaphorical; it's just an interesting fact to me. And though I did use floppy disks when I was younger, the idea of a floppy disk no longer even enters my mind when I look for the floppy disk icon; it's just an arbitrary recognizable shape. (The metaphor is…

I think icons can be arbitrary. That's because I've seen some that are so obviously idiosyncratic to the developer; they bear no relation to the function that I can decipher. Some of them I can't even tell what the heck they are. "WTF is that supposed to be?" It's like your example of the floppy. It's a rectangle. It means save. Does it matter if no one even knows what the heck the icon is supposed to represent? If it's not intuitive? For the first few minutes perhaps until I figure out what the program it represents actually does it matters. Maybe it gives me a clue maybe not. From then on, once I figure it out, it's irrelevant.

This is one of the 1001 reasons I think GUI's are a waste of time. I can just as easily tell a user to hit a particular key (i.e. a tactile button) or type "save". Goodbye ambiguity.

Are icons metaphors? Or are they just symbols?

I am not a linguist but I think that you may be stretching the definition of metapahor if you are thinking of icons as themselves being metaphors.

What is an icon? A button with a superimposed symbol?

Now, if you are saying buttons on a computer screen (which do not necessarily need any symbol superimposed on them to work) are metaphors for physical buttons, e.g. like your example of radio buttons, then that seems a little more reasonable.

I've seen early TV remote controls, 8-tracks and various other old things having push-in buttons just like car radios. I'm not sure car radios were the first to have these. Maybe early radios, before TV, were the first to have push-in buttons (or whatever the proper name for them is)?

Re: Skeuomorphism is the easy way out

#24

Post by mikeryan » Wed, Sep 05, 2012, 11:41 PM UTC

gdubs wrote: post #3

The designer / minimalist half of me eschews ornamentation – I'm a big fan of the "swiss style". But, for all the recent ragging on skeuomorphism, there are times when it is appropriate. When we released polychord 2 with its dark leather and chrome look, it was in response to feedback from lots of our users who wanted something that fit in with their studio gear. We resisted the urge to use 'knobs' and other physical…

Perhaps my absolute favorite (and one of the most awesome examples of Skeumorphism ever) is Propellerhead's Reason Software

(take a look)

http://www.propellerheads.se/products/reason/

Its an extremely powerful and complex piece of software that mimics the pieces of gear in a sound recording studio. This includes the ability to turn the gear around and patch it via cables etc.

I've never sat down at a piece of recording software (this complex) and "just got it" off the bat as well as I did with this. A lot of it was understanding how everything worked in a regular studio translated right into the software, seriously amazing. It actually made me more comfortable in a real live studio as well since it allowed me to play with tools and effects "Virtually" that I'd never have at home.

Anyway YMMV but anytime someone tells me that skeumorphism is the easy way out and useless I look at Reason and shake my head.

Re: Skeuomorphism is the easy way out

#25

Post by InclinedPlane » Wed, Sep 05, 2012, 11:56 PM UTC

TAKE THE EASY WAY OUT.

Have you ever watched a show like Kitchen Nightmares (or the many other variants now)? It's a show where a famous chef (Gordon Ramsay) comes into a restaurant in trouble and rescues it. Easily 90% of the stuff he does is just the basics. Clean things up, keep the decor up to date (and also clean), keep the menu small and packed with high quality items, etc. None of it is rocket surgery, but so many restaurants fail at such things.

And the same is true everywhere. Whether it's in online businesses, the UX for applications, or software architecture.

I highly recommend to everyone to take the easy way out first. Keep things simple, keep things clean, do the obvious thing at every step. Chances are this will lead to success and it will give you the ability to maybe try some less obvious things in the future.

Re: Skeuomorphism is the easy way out

#26

Post by vacri » Wed, Sep 05, 2012, 11:57 PM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #11

Skeumorphism is no more an "easy way out" than black Helvetica on a white background is an "easy way out". They can both be used appropriately, or used badly and in excess. The address book in OSX is an example of bad skeumorphism -- it's a fake book with pages that don't actually turn, trying to shoehorn "advanced" computer technology into a visual representation that doesn't work. It's a bad metaphor, a bad analogy…

Wow, that 'kudos nipple' is terrible. It's not even clear what's happened after the rather unclear "don't move" instruction.

Re: Skeuomorphism is the easy way out

#27

Post by UnFleshedOne » Wed, Sep 05, 2012, 11:58 PM UTC

thebigpicture wrote: post #23

comex wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also started using radio buttons long before I learned that they were based on car radios, and once I did so I didn't suddenly start thinking of the buttons as metaphorical; it's just an interesting fact to me. And though I did use floppy disks when I was younger, the idea of a floppy disk no longer even enters my mind when I look for the floppy disk icon; it's just an arbitrary recognizable shape. (The metaphor is…

I think icons can be arbitrary. That's because I've seen some that are so obviously idiosyncratic to the developer; they bear no relation to the function that I can decipher. Some of them I can't even tell what the heck they are. "WTF is that supposed to be?" It's like your example of the floppy. It's a rectangle. It means save. Does it matter if no one even knows what the heck the icon is supposed to represent? If i…

Typing "save" is very far from being unambiguous though. Should it be "save", "store", "write down", "file away", "preserve" or another one of a few dozen ways an unsuspecting person could come up with? Should you type "please" too? At least with GUI there is a button that semi-obviously can be clicked, even if it is unclear what it does. Discoverability is way better with GUI.

Re: Skeuomorphism is the easy way out

#28

Post by cameronh90 » Thu, Sep 06, 2012, 12:04 AM UTC

mikeryan wrote: post #24

gdubs wrote: post #3

The designer / minimalist half of me eschews ornamentation – I'm a big fan of the "swiss style". But, for all the recent ragging on skeuomorphism, there are times when it is appropriate. When we released polychord 2 with its dark leather and chrome look, it was in response to feedback from lots of our users who wanted something that fit in with their studio gear. We resisted the urge to use 'knobs' and other physical…

Perhaps my absolute favorite (and one of the most awesome examples of Skeumorphism ever) is Propellerhead's Reason Software (take a look) http://www.propellerheads.se/products/reason/ Its an extremely powerful and complex piece of software that mimics the pieces of gear in a sound recording studio. This includes the ability to turn the gear around and patch it via cables etc. I've never sat down at a piece of recordi…

Conversely, I find audio editing software is usually an example of skeuomorphism gone nuts. I don't mind a bit of it to guide me using concepts I already understand, but what is the purpose of imitating all of the bad parts of real life?

* Dangly cables that get in the way of stuff and are hard to follow, and you can't even tilt your head to see around them (and "Each cable plugs into exactly two holes"?)

* Physical-styled knobs. Often harder to control and more ambiguous than sliders or other circular controls that don't try to imitate a physical knob.

* Lack of selective disclosure and dimming leads to very overloaded UIs

* Mode switch/up/down buttons rather than directly selectable options

* Pointless ornamentation like screws, fans, handles

* Constraints in the physical model will often translate to constraints in the software

* Often only intuitive to people who are familiar with the thing it's based on

There's no reason you can't take the good parts of a physical interface and use those elements in a virtual interface, but there's no need to try and make it exactly the same. All UI is vaguely based on something that came before it, often something physical ("desktop", "window", "folder"..)

That's not to say Reason isn't great software, but honestly, music software does tend to be somewhat confusing anyway, and also tends to be very skeuomorphic.

Re: Skeuomorphism is the easy way out

#29

Post by 001sky » Thu, Sep 06, 2012, 12:06 AM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #11

Skeumorphism is no more an "easy way out" than black Helvetica on a white background is an "easy way out". They can both be used appropriately, or used badly and in excess. The address book in OSX is an example of bad skeumorphism -- it's a fake book with pages that don't actually turn, trying to shoehorn "advanced" computer technology into a visual representation that doesn't work. It's a bad metaphor, a bad analogy…

A simple thumbs-up icon would be understandable by everyone, which is almost skeumorphic in its own way, since it refers to a physical thumbs-up... Reference to the physical world can be a very useful thing.

"OK" is one of the worlds best understood words, in any language. Simple, elegant, and a powerful. This is an important point. Very information efficient. All of this is synoymous with good design. Skeumorphic, or not.

Re: Skeuomorphism is the easy way out

#30

Post by pirateking » Thu, Sep 06, 2012, 12:57 AM UTC

Skeuomorphism is important, necessary even. The issue is that people are conflating it with nostalgia.

An interface can be considered skeuomorphic if it provides affordances that are useful in the physical world - shadows, shapes and animations based on the laws of physics. Such an interface provides the necessary clues to tell a user how to interact with its elements.

Nostalgia serves another purpose. It creates an association between a common old interface, and the new one. It provides the clues as to why the user should interact with its elements.

I would argue that skeuomorphism is not the easy way out, its the right way. Nostalgia is a much more likely candidate for being the path of least resistance. Because the alternative is education.