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Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

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Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#21

Post by TheAmazingRace »

tshaddox wrote: post #14
hollywood_court wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be personal preference, but IMHO there’s no reason to conceal carry if you’re going to do it without a round chambered. I’m a huge Sig collector and I’ve been a fan of theirs since the 90s. I’ve carried a Sig daily for 20+ years. I only carried a P320 for a few months until I finally downsized to the P365. But I’ve got to admit that their PR and response to these incidents is not a good look. But I am a bit…

> IMHO there’s no reason to conceal carry if you’re going to do it without a round chambered. Why is that your opinion? Surely there's a wide variety of plausible scenarios where carrying a concealed weapon without a round chambered is much better than not carrying a concealed weapon.

Not OP, but having a round chambered can be advantageous in a self-defense scenario, where every second counts. Having to think to rack the slide before firing could be enough for your opponent to get to you first.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#22

Post by katmannthree »

tshaddox wrote: post #14
hollywood_court wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be personal preference, but IMHO there’s no reason to conceal carry if you’re going to do it without a round chambered. I’m a huge Sig collector and I’ve been a fan of theirs since the 90s. I’ve carried a Sig daily for 20+ years. I only carried a P320 for a few months until I finally downsized to the P365. But I’ve got to admit that their PR and response to these incidents is not a good look. But I am a bit…

> IMHO there’s no reason to conceal carry if you’re going to do it without a round chambered. Why is that your opinion? Surely there's a wide variety of plausible scenarios where carrying a concealed weapon without a round chambered is much better than not carrying a concealed weapon.

Because if you're going to carry, you should choose something that's safe to carry with a round chambered (i.e. not a Sig P320). There are countless videos showing real-world examples of defensive handgun use. One common thread is that there's virtually no time between when you realize you're going to need your sidearm and when you need it. The extra second it takes to rack the slide and chamber a round can be the difference between surviving the encounter and not.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#23

Post by Modified3019 »

jleyank wrote: post #2

This seems to suggest carrying with a chambered round. Is this prudent without an external threat? They can drop the thing, or some kind of impact can yield a “design problem”. Can’t they just chamber when there’s a need?

It’s a personal taste kind of thing, where there’s decent arguments either way.

Proponents of having a loaded chamber value having the firearm immediately ready, because a situation where they actually need to draw on someone/something may not have time or space to use both hands to rack their pistol before someone/something is on them.

Those who want an empty chamber consider the increased safety vs potential malfunctions/accidents to outweigh the risks of being less able to respond to a small subset of threats.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#25

Post by wrp »

hollywood_court wrote: post #8
jleyank wrote: post #2

This seems to suggest carrying with a chambered round. Is this prudent without an external threat? They can drop the thing, or some kind of impact can yield a “design problem”. Can’t they just chamber when there’s a need?

That may be personal preference, but IMHO there’s no reason to conceal carry if you’re going to do it without a round chambered. I’m a huge Sig collector and I’ve been a fan of theirs since the 90s. I’ve carried a Sig daily for 20+ years. I only carried a P320 for a few months until I finally downsized to the P365. But I’ve got to admit that their PR and response to these incidents is not a good look. But I am a bit…

> The gun has been at the center of dozens of civil lawsuits claiming it has a design flaw, though judges and juries have delivered mixed verdicts over the company’s liability in these shootings.

It does sound like there is a specific design issue to be discussed.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#26

Post by dcrazy »

nosignono wrote: post #15
nabla9 wrote: post #4

Since all services have adopted it, idiot proofing should be the main feature of the gun because it will be carried with idiots all the time and casualties accumulate.

This wasn't a case of an idiot, except perhaps placing the muzzle in a direction that a human would be present. The gun was in the holster, and the entire holster was removed from the belt and placed on a desk. There's nothing in that course of action that would allow a finger or anything to get into the trigger well. The gun should absolutely not have gone off.

I didn’t read nabla’s comment as accusing the deceased of being an idiot. Rather, it was a statement that the military is full of idiots (aka teenage boys) and therefore any standard issue weapon should be designed appropriately.

A gun that can go off on its own even when handled properly is the opposite of idiot-proof.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#27

Post by nosignono »

tshaddox wrote: post #14
hollywood_court wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be personal preference, but IMHO there’s no reason to conceal carry if you’re going to do it without a round chambered. I’m a huge Sig collector and I’ve been a fan of theirs since the 90s. I’ve carried a Sig daily for 20+ years. I only carried a P320 for a few months until I finally downsized to the P365. But I’ve got to admit that their PR and response to these incidents is not a good look. But I am a bit…

> IMHO there’s no reason to conceal carry if you’re going to do it without a round chambered. Why is that your opinion? Surely there's a wide variety of plausible scenarios where carrying a concealed weapon without a round chambered is much better than not carrying a concealed weapon.

When you draw from concealment, an experienced shooter needs only get their grip and an eye picture -- point gun at target and fire. You only need to train muscle memory to get into a firing position, which is also what you are regularly training every time you live fire or dry fire.

If you don't have a round chambered, you need to draw, rack and release the slide, hope a round is properly chambered (in a panicked situation you might not rack the slide properly), then get into a firing position. This is a much more complex movement and evaluation of state. You are pulling the gun up, manipulating it with two hands, then moving it forward and finding your grip. In an emergency, that time loss and complexity of motion is considerably more difficult to train.

Even experienced shooters will draw from a holster and immediately present their gun and try to fire, and then realize they don't have a round chambered, have to bring the gun back to rack the slide, and then present the gun again.

You conceal carry because you want to be prepared at an emergency to deal with an imminent threat. Adding complex manipulations to that erodes your ability to do that, and any modern pistol should not fire unless you pull the trigger. They should be safe from drops, shakes, or manipulations.

If your threat isn't "I need to have a firearm ready asap", then you should consider not conceal carrying, in which case you may want your pistol unloaded or unchambered.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#28

Post by OJFord »

hollywood_court wrote: post #20
OJFord wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what's the reason for USAF personnel to conceal carry on a USAF base? Article doesn't even suggest it was.

I should have been more clear: if you're going to carry a firearm on your person, regardless of concealed or open, it should always have a round in the chamber.

That may be your rule, for all I know it's the USAF's rule, but it's not the British Army's, and it doesn't seem logical to me in a military context.

(I probably agree with you in the context of 'out in public and have decided you need a firearm', just not 'on a friendly military base and carrying a firearm as a matter of course rather than any acute reason'.)

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#29

Post by [deleted] »

ndrwdvvs wrote: post #10
jleyank wrote: post #2

This seems to suggest carrying with a chambered round. Is this prudent without an external threat? They can drop the thing, or some kind of impact can yield a “design problem”. Can’t they just chamber when there’s a need?

a reasonably experienced competitive shooter can draw from a holster and put two shots on target in ~1.25-1.5sec. racking a round while drawing would probably put it around 2-2.5sec. that 0.5-1sec advantage could make a pretty big difference.

[deleted]

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#30

Post by rhcom2 »

jeffbee wrote: post #16
tshaddox wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IMHO there’s no reason to conceal carry if you’re going to do it without a round chambered. Why is that your opinion? Surely there's a wide variety of plausible scenarios where carrying a concealed weapon without a round chambered is much better than not carrying a concealed weapon.

[flagged]

There is definitely thinking among some who CC they're going to be John Wick but "good guy with a gun" is definitely not "totally imaginary". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_shooter#/media/File:200...
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