Molecule produced by gut bacteria causes atherosclerosis • Hacker News Board

Re: Molecule produced by gut bacteria causes atherosclerosis

#21

Post by meepmorp » Thu, Jul 17, 2025, 7:07 PM UTC

lkuty wrote: post #11

I wonder how this study can be reconciled with the carnivorous diet, which is apparently high in good fats and good cholesterol. There is also the notion of structured water and a deficient exclusion zone which could explain the presence of plaque in the vessels according to Thomas Cowan, for example. So, I'm not sure that the factors that prevent plaque formation are those indicated. Nutrition is a complex matter.

> There is also the notion of structured water

I had to look up structured water and agree with the sibling poster: stop listening to cranks and grifters.

Re: Molecule produced by gut bacteria causes atherosclerosis

#22

Post by TuringTourist » Thu, Jul 17, 2025, 7:14 PM UTC

Aurornis wrote: post #12

tmaly wrote: post #2

I wonder how much of our diet contributes to these gut microbes?

Massively. Changing diet is about the only realistic way to elicit long-term changes in the microbiome. Even taking probiotics doesn't last very long. There's a lot of questionable microbiome science that hasn't been replicated. You can find a lot of studies that say something changes the microbiome, but it's almost always a single short-term observational study on a small group of people. Realistically, increasing v…

What is your definition of processed food? Are potatoes processed because they are cleaned? Is chicken breast processed because the chicken is plucked? Is vinegar processed because it has undergone a chemical transformation via fermentation? Are potato chips processed because they are sliced potatoes fried in oil? Are fried plantains processed because they are sliced plantains fried in oil?

I do not mean to come across as antagonistic, I just haven't been able to find a line that everyone agrees with and felt it was useful to demonstrate that by asking a bunch of questions.

Re: Molecule produced by gut bacteria causes atherosclerosis

#23

Post by pygy_ » Thu, Jul 17, 2025, 7:15 PM UTC

ck2 wrote: post #20

thought that was going to be about TMAO (Trimethylamine N-Oxide) https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/HYPERTENSIONAHA.120.... https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9235870/figure/F1/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6213249/figure/nutr...

TMAO is the precursor of imidazole propionate.

Re: Molecule produced by gut bacteria causes atherosclerosis

#24

Post by healthless » Thu, Jul 17, 2025, 7:22 PM UTC

TuringTourist wrote: post #22

Aurornis wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Massively. Changing diet is about the only realistic way to elicit long-term changes in the microbiome. Even taking probiotics doesn't last very long. There's a lot of questionable microbiome science that hasn't been replicated. You can find a lot of studies that say something changes the microbiome, but it's almost always a single short-term observational study on a small group of people. Realistically, increasing v…

What is your definition of processed food? Are potatoes processed because they are cleaned? Is chicken breast processed because the chicken is plucked? Is vinegar processed because it has undergone a chemical transformation via fermentation? Are potato chips processed because they are sliced potatoes fried in oil? Are fried plantains processed because they are sliced plantains fried in oil? I do not mean to come acro…

> What is your definition of processed food? Are potatoes processed because they are cleaned? Is chicken breast processed because the chicken is plucked? Is vinegar processed because it has undergone a chemical transformation via fermentation? Are potato chips processed because they are sliced potatoes fried in oil? Are fried plantains processed because they are sliced plantains fried in oil?

In practice, for the vast majority, it doesn't matter where the line is drawn.

Simply moving your diet as close as possible to unprocessed food (read: minimal steps between organism and ingestion) is the goal.

Re: Molecule produced by gut bacteria causes atherosclerosis

#25

Post by adammarples » Thu, Jul 17, 2025, 7:27 PM UTC

TuringTourist wrote: post #22

Aurornis wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Massively. Changing diet is about the only realistic way to elicit long-term changes in the microbiome. Even taking probiotics doesn't last very long. There's a lot of questionable microbiome science that hasn't been replicated. You can find a lot of studies that say something changes the microbiome, but it's almost always a single short-term observational study on a small group of people. Realistically, increasing v…

What is your definition of processed food? Are potatoes processed because they are cleaned? Is chicken breast processed because the chicken is plucked? Is vinegar processed because it has undergone a chemical transformation via fermentation? Are potato chips processed because they are sliced potatoes fried in oil? Are fried plantains processed because they are sliced plantains fried in oil? I do not mean to come acro…

Nobody seems to agree, but the best I've been able to find is that every step counts and the level of invasiveness does too. So a plucked chicken is one thing, but a plucked, chlorine rinsed, freeze dried, ground up, centrifuged, glued, rehydrated, salted, etc. is another

Re: Molecule produced by gut bacteria causes atherosclerosis

#26

Post by elcritch » Thu, Jul 17, 2025, 7:33 PM UTC

nextos wrote: post #9

The same metabolite, imidazole propionate (ImP), was already found to be associated with diabetes and heart failure. See for example this study in Nature Communications (2020): https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-19589-w . I think the value of the current study in Nature is that "ImP administration to atherosclerosis-prone mice fed with chow diet was sufficient to induce atherosclerosis without altering the li…

Anyone know if there’s lab tests for ImP already? Is it a common or well known enough target?

Re: Molecule produced by gut bacteria causes atherosclerosis

#27

Post by slibhb » Thu, Jul 17, 2025, 7:33 PM UTC

pretzellogician wrote: post #17

Aurornis wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As time goes on, more "lifestyle diseases" will be root-caused like this, rather than just being due to "personal choice" and "willpower". The article directly says that diet and lifestyle factors are associated with levels of imidazole propionate > When Fuster presented the project in 2010, he noted how difficult it is to diagnose cardiovascular problems early and how simple it is to prevent them, with measures su…

>So it's not correct to wave it all away and say that it's all random bacterial infections That is not what I said (per my comment "Yes, sure, lifestyle has something to do with any or all of these.") But it seems likely we'll find that lifestyle and diet are not the only cause, maybe not even the primary one. >>> When Fuster presented the project in 2010, he noted how difficult it is to diagnose cardiovascular probl…

> That is not what I said (per my comment "Yes, sure, lifestyle has something to do with any or all of these.") But it seems likely we'll find that lifestyle and diet are not the only cause, maybe not even the primary one.

What would it even mean for lifestyle choices to directly cause some condition?

Attributing causation is largely subjective (up to a point). It's like saying "flipping the light switch didn't turn off the lights, rather it was the cessation of the flow of electrons".

> So... cardiovascular problems can be "prevented" with those simple measures? It seems likely there are some non-smoking marathoner vegans that have died of heart attacks. But maybe he was mis-translated.

Eating right, not getting fat, and exercising dramatically lowers the risk of heart disease. Some people who do all that will still get heart disease due to some congenital condition. But the vast majority of heart disease can be avoided.

Re: Molecule produced by gut bacteria causes atherosclerosis

#28

Post by patrickhogan1 » Thu, Jul 17, 2025, 7:43 PM UTC

lkuty wrote: post #11

I wonder how this study can be reconciled with the carnivorous diet, which is apparently high in good fats and good cholesterol. There is also the notion of structured water and a deficient exclusion zone which could explain the presence of plaque in the vessels according to Thomas Cowan, for example. So, I'm not sure that the factors that prevent plaque formation are those indicated. Nutrition is a complex matter.

Plaque buildup is highly heritable. So is the initial biome and often eating patterns since your parent feeds you.

Re: Molecule produced by gut bacteria causes atherosclerosis

#29

Post by Modified3019 » Thu, Jul 17, 2025, 7:47 PM UTC

lkuty wrote: post #11

I wonder how this study can be reconciled with the carnivorous diet, which is apparently high in good fats and good cholesterol. There is also the notion of structured water and a deficient exclusion zone which could explain the presence of plaque in the vessels according to Thomas Cowan, for example. So, I'm not sure that the factors that prevent plaque formation are those indicated. Nutrition is a complex matter.

“Structured water”?

I don’t know how to say this kinder than that you’ve been intellectually consuming trash, please pull yourself back.

Re: Molecule produced by gut bacteria causes atherosclerosis

#30

Post by Diti » Thu, Jul 17, 2025, 7:52 PM UTC

TuringTourist wrote: post #22

Aurornis wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Massively. Changing diet is about the only realistic way to elicit long-term changes in the microbiome. Even taking probiotics doesn't last very long. There's a lot of questionable microbiome science that hasn't been replicated. You can find a lot of studies that say something changes the microbiome, but it's almost always a single short-term observational study on a small group of people. Realistically, increasing v…

What is your definition of processed food? Are potatoes processed because they are cleaned? Is chicken breast processed because the chicken is plucked? Is vinegar processed because it has undergone a chemical transformation via fermentation? Are potato chips processed because they are sliced potatoes fried in oil? Are fried plantains processed because they are sliced plantains fried in oil? I do not mean to come acro…

My personal definition is that if you can stack the food you buy, it has been processed. It’s a subjective definition, and there might be dozens of counterexamples, but it feels true to me.