I have been using Unix since 1983, and Linux since version However, if you want to use a shell script for setup instead of a Dockerfile, and don’t mind terminating and recreating VMs when you change anything, and your DNS is set up well, then yeah, that can work almost as well. I do that, sometimes.
Basically Everyone Should Be Avoiding Docker
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Re: Basically Everyone Should Be Avoiding Docker
#22The only problem I have with containerization is it’s not optimal. You’re adding all sorts of unnecessary overhead that’s not needed, often times to avoid an underlying problem.
Unfortunately, the real software world doesn’t solve underlying problems, they just want things up and running as soon as possible. So Containerization has proved to be pretty useful.
From a hacker perspective, it’s just boring in the same way I feel about AI. It takes the fun out of crafting software.
Re: Basically Everyone Should Be Avoiding Docker
#23> You might say that doing such a little operation becomes easier after being more familiar with containerization—I’m sure that’s true, absolutely.
If you admit this, then why do you go on to write against docker in such an authoritative tone?
I don’t think you understand docker.
Re: Basically Everyone Should Be Avoiding Docker
#24That... was not a very convincing article! It came across as a frustrated op-ed where the author intentionally focused on the negatives rather than steel manning their own argument. Any potential positives were handwaved as out-of-scope.
VSCode devcontainers are awesome. They are my default way of working on any new project.
Being able to blow away a container and start with a fresh, reproducible setup - at any time - saves so many headaches.
Re: Basically Everyone Should Be Avoiding Docker
#25This has rather strong “old man yelling at clouds” vibes. OP: Learn docker and it stops being an “impenetrable wall.” Face it, you don’t want to use docker (or podman) because you are set in your ways. That’s fine, but it is not an argument for anyone else.
When I encounter a README/INSTALL that advises Docker, I start to suspect that the package is a mess. I'm sure there are legitimate usages within enterprise-y scenarios, but it has commonly become a way to paper over other issues.
Yep, people here hate the organically built Lisp save and die images, but many open source and in company repositories with docker are very similar: they got it working on their computer inside docker through manually changing, rearranging and writing scripts, many of which reverse things from other scripts, update packages installed higher up in the same script etc etc and then just published it as it works. So trying 'make' or whatever outside the container simply errors out as it wont work anywhere else but in the very specific confines of the linux inside the container. The difference is pretty clear: if the readme starts with how to run the project without docker but also has a docker, the setup is clean, if it starts with docker and then, maybe, points to a separate docs dir with random 'notes' how to run locally, you know it will be a mess you probably never want to try (outside running docker).
Re: Basically Everyone Should Be Avoiding Docker
#26"Everyone else needs to learn and use Linux so I don't have to learn Docker"
Except based on this article, i don't think the author knows linux very well either.
Re: Basically Everyone Should Be Avoiding Docker
#27> There are basically only two “real” reasons to use Docker or containerization more generally:
> 1. People who do not know how to use Unix-based operating systems or specifically GNU/Linux.
> 2. People who are deploying a program for a corporation at a massive enterprise scale, don’t care about customizability and need some kind of guarantor of homogeneity.
Unix is only around because of its use at massive enterprise scale. Very few people were using Unix instead of DOS (or Mac OS or Windows or whatever) for their home PCs; it only got popular and people learned how to use it and later Linux because of its use in business. Nowadays, Docker is the standard packaging system at massive enterprise scale. As such, you should learn to use it
Re: Basically Everyone Should Be Avoiding Docker
#28Docker has so much overhead (complexity and technical) - I hear people recommend it for simplicity all the time and assume they have out-of-date, insecure setups ... Docker containers require more setup to secure and backup in my experience.
Re: Basically Everyone Should Be Avoiding Docker
#29Very unconvincing. With container images, you can use docker compose or k8s to declare and deploy your entire service architecture. That is… massively useful.
Re: Basically Everyone Should Be Avoiding Docker
#30For the most part people decide to create Docker containers like they're deploying everything to heavy prod so they chop the image down super narrow. Just solve for your own use-case. I run my blog and other things on a homeserver with a Cloudflare reverse proxy in front of it and I don't use `docker` strictly but I do use systemd quadlets and podman and it's the same thing.
If you're upset with your tooling in your Docker image, just make it so you can become root in it, make sure it has debug tooling, and so on and so forth. Nothing stops you from running `updatedb` and `locate` in it. It's just an overlayfs for the fs nothing fancy.
I understand somewhat the urge for this. There is some containerization overhead and at a small prop trading shop we wouldn't do it (apart from the annoyance of plumbing onload etc. I never figured out how to control scheduling properly) but for most things containers are a godsend.