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Why it's so hard to find a photo of Neil Armstrong on the moon

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Re: Why it's so hard to find a photo of Neil Armstrong on the moon

#21

Post by jyap »

In fact, now that you know this picture was manipulated by the source, I’d urge you to have it removed from your photo archives. Permanently.

Uh, Neil Armstrong had a Hasselblad camera strapped to his chest. I'd say excuse the lack of sky composition. Besides, the original picture also captures the lander in the composition. Wouldn't you want more photographic detail in a moon landing operation photo instead of one which is more harmoniously composed but contains useless black sky? But like I said, he's taking pictures with a camera strapped to his chest.

.. And who cares if it isn't a picture of Neil? It is the best representation of the feat and overall project. Besides, he took the picture.

Re: Why it's so hard to find a photo of Neil Armstrong on the moon

#22

Post by michaelt »

tjoff wrote: post #14
erez wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For example, the moon landing is a subject of many conspiracy theorists who claim it was fabricated. A doctored image (esp. by NASA) published just gives them another reason to argue that there was never a moon-landing as all the images from it are obviously fake. Second, any reporter must verify his, or her sources, otherwise they are subject to manipulation and if a source is falsifying information, for whatever re…

Conspiracy theorists don't need reasons to argue. that information must not be used as the reported cannot know to which degree was the information tampered with Yet, in this case the reporter knows to which degree the information was tampered with - and the reporter has no problem verifying it either.

I don't know if you've ever heard of a 'bright line rule' [0] - the idea is you have a simple rule everyone can understand and interpret in the same way, instead of a nuanced rule with lots of room for interpretation.

If you use a simple-to-follow rule like "no editing except to crop and correct color balance" that's easy to understand and follow.

When you allow some manipulation as long as it's noted, editors will composite a celebrity's face onto a model's body for the front page and note it's as a fake in tiny text in a contents list three pages away. Far-fetched? Newsweek have already done it [1].

[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bright_line_rule [1] http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/03/business/media/03mag.html

Re: Why it's so hard to find a photo of Neil Armstrong on the moon

#23

Post by batista »

pfedor wrote: post #12

I always assumed that the poor composition of the original AS11-40-5903 (and many other photos from the Moon which suffer from the same problem) was because every pixel was precious, so they didn't want the uniformly black sky to take up any larger fraction of the image area than necessary. You can always add more black, unlike the rocks or equipment or whatever which was captured in the bottom of the picture. BTW in…

>I always assumed that the poor composition of the original AS11-40-5903 (and many other photos from the Moon which suffer from the same problem) was because every pixel was precious, so they didn't want the uniformly black sky to take up any larger fraction of the image area than necessary.

It wasn't pixels -- it was emulsion film.

Nor was it that precious. What would they do with a photo of more rock/equipment and less space?

I guess the photos was more for a documentation/publicity use than of actual scientific interest.

Re: Why it's so hard to find a photo of Neil Armstrong on the moon

#24

Post by batista »

jyap wrote: post #21

In fact, now that you know this picture was manipulated by the source, I’d urge you to have it removed from your photo archives. Permanently. Uh, Neil Armstrong had a Hasselblad camera strapped to his chest. I'd say excuse the lack of sky composition. Besides, the original picture also captures the lander in the composition. Wouldn't you want more photographic detail in a moon landing operation photo instead of one w…

>.. And who cares if it isn't a picture of Neil?

Editors searching for pictures of Neil? Because he was the one that died recently and they have to write stories about him?

Re: Why it's so hard to find a photo of Neil Armstrong on the moon

#25

Post by regularfry »

jordanb wrote: post #19
erez wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For example, the moon landing is a subject of many conspiracy theorists who claim it was fabricated. A doctored image (esp. by NASA) published just gives them another reason to argue that there was never a moon-landing as all the images from it are obviously fake. Second, any reporter must verify his, or her sources, otherwise they are subject to manipulation and if a source is falsifying information, for whatever re…

The "doctoring" of the photo involves cropping part of the bottom away and adding a black border to the top. It was clearly done to improve the composition rather than to deceive or mislead. If crops, borders, rotations, etc. constitute "doctoring" then virtually every publicity photo NASA releases has been doctored. And if those minor transformations aren't allowed then surely none of the composite photos from the M…

To play a slightly comical devil's advocate, what if Neil Armstrong had intentionally angled the camera down to avoid photographing their flying saucer escort? From the original it's not obvious that the area above Buzz Aldrin's helmet is black.

Yes, I know, it is really, but you don't know that from the photo, and that's an important distinction when you don't know the full context your reporting of the photo will be presented in at a future date. I think the argument is that crops and rotations are generally ok (although the argument about the upside-down footprint is interesting), but a transformation which claims to add information not originally in the photo cannot be ok.

Re: Why it's so hard to find a photo of Neil Armstrong on the moon

#26

Post by moreati »

hastur wrote: post #13

Because it's all a conspiracy. There isn't and never was a moon. See here a British youth journalist challenge Buzz Aldrin about it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kKFYTBo6kA

For the record that "youth journalist" is Ali G, a character of Sacha Baron Cohen - the same guy who plays Borat.

Re: Why it's so hard to find a photo of Neil Armstrong on the moon

#27

Post by nicholassmith »

nicholassmith wrote: post #7
teebs wrote: post #4

Pardon my ignorance, but why is it so horrible to use a photo manipulated by the source--especially if you know exactly how and why it was manipulated, and you still have access to the original? This manipulation seems rather benign, too. Why must it be "removed from your photo archives"?

Journalistic ethics basically.

I'd just woken up so I didn't qualify this as much as I should have, all though the tl;dr is just the three words above.

Newspapers are based around a mission of delivering facts (or at least the facts they want to share), and when that core rule is violated the inherent trust is broken. So when someone is misquoted, a story manufactured and so on then the journalists have failed, are fired and cast out of the community (mostly). Photography was one of the biggest changes to news reporting as it allowed facts to be visually disseminated as well, but because they're essentially a snapshot of the moment as it had happened modification of almost any kind was immediately held up as a no-no.

Some newspapers are getting a bit more progressive, but every 3-6 months in the photography community there's a discussion regarding whether the tools photographers use should be allowed in photojournalism, or whether in the central mission of delivering the truth photo modification, even in a trivially form, is counter as how can you say the changes haven't gone further.

For the more curious: http://www.petapixel.com/2012/06/15/time-travel-and-ethical-...

http://www.petapixel.com/2012/03/08/should-photo-contests-re...

http://www.nppa.org/news_and_events/news/2006/08/ethics.html

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/02/22/opinion/phones-instagram-a...

Re: Why it's so hard to find a photo of Neil Armstrong on the moon

#28

Post by jyap »

batista wrote: post #24
jyap wrote: post #21

In fact, now that you know this picture was manipulated by the source, I’d urge you to have it removed from your photo archives. Permanently. Uh, Neil Armstrong had a Hasselblad camera strapped to his chest. I'd say excuse the lack of sky composition. Besides, the original picture also captures the lander in the composition. Wouldn't you want more photographic detail in a moon landing operation photo instead of one w…

> .. And who cares if it isn't a picture of Neil? Editors searching for pictures of Neil? Because he was the one that died recently and they have to write stories about him?

The only people who care that it isn't a picture of Neil Armstrong are:

- People who know it isn't a picture of Neil Armstrong and feel like they need to point that out.

- People who are bothered by the slight inaccuracy that it isn't a picture taken of him.

Either way, he took the picture. He took one of the most famous pictures.

If the caption to the picture reads "Buzz Aldrin as captured by Neil Armstrong", who cares? Have you ever seen a caption which says that it is Neil Armstrong? I haven't. People just assume it is because he is the best known since he was the first man on the moon.

Re: Why it's so hard to find a photo of Neil Armstrong on the moon

#29

Post by batista »

jyap wrote: post #28
batista wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> .. And who cares if it isn't a picture of Neil? Editors searching for pictures of Neil? Because he was the one that died recently and they have to write stories about him?

The only people who care that it isn't a picture of Neil Armstrong are: - People who know it isn't a picture of Neil Armstrong and feel like they need to point that out. - People who are bothered by the slight inaccuracy that it isn't a picture taken of him. Either way, he took the picture. He took one of the most famous pictures. If the caption to the picture reads "Buzz Aldrin as captured by Neil Armstrong", who ca…

>If the caption to the picture reads "Buzz Aldrin as captured by Neil Armstrong", who cares?

I _effin_ care. E.g. I want a picture of Neil Armstrong for my article. Not a picture that _he_ took of somebody else. Not a quick sketch he did of his cat. I want a picture of HIM, preferably on the moon.

That he "took the picture" is meaningless for the purposes of _showing_ the man in action. If I was writing about Knuth I wouldn't post a picture of McCarthy he took and caption it "John McCarthy as captured by D. Knuth".

As someone who used to do photo editing for a newspaper, I assure you that this is Photo Editing 101. Your arguments are loco.

Re: Why it's so hard to find a photo of Neil Armstrong on the moon

#30

Post by sp332 »

batista wrote: post #29
jyap wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only people who care that it isn't a picture of Neil Armstrong are: - People who know it isn't a picture of Neil Armstrong and feel like they need to point that out. - People who are bothered by the slight inaccuracy that it isn't a picture taken of him. Either way, he took the picture. He took one of the most famous pictures. If the caption to the picture reads "Buzz Aldrin as captured by Neil Armstrong", who ca…

> If the caption to the picture reads "Buzz Aldrin as captured by Neil Armstrong", who cares? I _effin_ care. E.g. I want a picture of Neil Armstrong for my article. Not a picture that _he_ took of somebody else. Not a quick sketch he did of his cat. I want a picture of HIM, preferably on the moon. That he "took the picture" is meaningless for the purposes of _showing_ the man in action. If I was writing about Knuth…

From http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/images11.html#5903 here's an (analog, darkroom) reconstruction of the photo of Neil in Buzz's helmet. http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/a11.neil-mirror.jpg
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