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Wayland is growing up. and now we don't have a choice

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Re: Wayland is growing up. and now we don't have a choice

#21

Post by bmacho »

vidarh wrote: post #18
bmacho wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've seen enough stuff I've flagged disappear quickly, and then reappear later (with surprisingly reasonable discussion), to suggest that the admins will retrieve any popular discussion that was unreasonably assigned to the naughty step. That's the whole point. The default for everything that has at least a small hater base is to disappear, until for manual reenabling by moderators. This is not community moderation…

While I find the moderation on HN a bit heavyhanded at times: When the originator of the XLibre fork decided to push a heavily partisan political stance right there in the README, he made a choice that ensured that the project will be controversial. He can fix that very easily if he wants to. As someone who detest Wayland, I would very much like to see Xlibre be sucessful, but I'm not surprised a lot of people will r…

I don't think it is a good reason or even an acceptable reason to actively censor the news about the project, and prevent people to communicate about it. While XLibre is unfortunately political at the moment, this is not an excuse for what the HN staff is doing.

Re: Wayland is growing up. and now we don't have a choice

#22

Post by abhinavk »

colanderman wrote: post #17
mkesper wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wayland supports nvidia cards, that they are not supported is FUD at this point in time.

Really? As of a couple months ago I nearly totally hosed my Debian installation trying to get Wayland GDM working under Nvidia.

I haven't tried Debian but the latest releases of Ubuntu, Fedora as well as any rolling release distro work fine.

Re: Wayland is growing up. and now we don't have a choice

#23

Post by zamadatix »

bmacho wrote: post #14
anonym29 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate more on discussions about XLibre being banned on here? Are accounts that mention it getting banned? Is there just mass downvoting by partisans with some kind of agenda? I get that X11 has security issues, but NVIDIA drivers and Wayland still seem to have no support now and no support planned for the future, so Wayland is a non-negotiable non-option for many (most?) Linux desktop users, including mys…

> Can you elaborate more on discussions about XLibre being banned on here? Are accounts that mention it getting banned? Is there just mass downvoting by partisans with some kind of agenda? YC moderators are hiding the articles from the front page. x11libre got 2 active discussions here according to https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... and both got removed from the front page - https://news.…

A highly controversial guy making controversial patches to a somewhat heated topic around these parts is going to get flagged by users too, how are you so certain it's the admins doing the hiding? Even when not flagged the score to comment ratios will drag those off the front page quickly.

Re: Wayland is growing up. and now we don't have a choice

#24

Post by lotharcable »

colanderman wrote: post #17
mkesper wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wayland supports nvidia cards, that they are not supported is FUD at this point in time.

Really? As of a couple months ago I nearly totally hosed my Debian installation trying to get Wayland GDM working under Nvidia.

Nvidia under Linux has had a long and hard history.

For most purposes, including gaming, it is best to avoid Nvidia hardware. Using Intel for laptops and AMD for dedicated GPUs is kinda the best general approach if you are planning on using Linux.

Of course if you have a need for CUDA then Nvidia is the only game in town, but that is a different issue then Wayland support.

For a while Nvidia was fighting the Xorg/Wayland devs over GBM vs EGLStreams which has delayed Wayland support. This has to do with the API extensions that allowed Wayland to manage application output buffers.

Gnome was the only Wayland environment to try to support EGLStreams for Nvidia, but it really didn't do them any good.

A while ago Nvidia eventually switched over to GBM and EGLStreams is dead, which helped out a lot of people running non-Gnome Wayland desktops. But there are lots of problems with Nvidia drivers besides that right now.

The reality is that Nvidia doesn't care about consumer Linux desktop. Their primary focus is on Enterprise users in terms of people needing graphically accelerated desktops.

So right now if you are running Linux on your personal workstations/desktops/laptops you are essentially beta testers for whenever Enterprise Linux distros make the switch to Wayland.

Re: Wayland is growing up. and now we don't have a choice

#25

Post by vidarh »

bmacho wrote: post #14
anonym29 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate more on discussions about XLibre being banned on here? Are accounts that mention it getting banned? Is there just mass downvoting by partisans with some kind of agenda? I get that X11 has security issues, but NVIDIA drivers and Wayland still seem to have no support now and no support planned for the future, so Wayland is a non-negotiable non-option for many (most?) Linux desktop users, including mys…

> Can you elaborate more on discussions about XLibre being banned on here? Are accounts that mention it getting banned? Is there just mass downvoting by partisans with some kind of agenda? YC moderators are hiding the articles from the front page. x11libre got 2 active discussions here according to https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... and both got removed from the front page - https://news.…

Both threads devolved into politics, and that's likely the reasons why they got flagged. There's no evidence these were hidden by moderators, as opposed to because regular users flagged threads.

Having seen some of your comments on one of those threads, there's a decent chance your comments contributed to getting those posts flagged.

Re: Wayland is growing up. and now we don't have a choice

#26

Post by Spivak »

mkesper wrote: post #13
anonym29 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate more on discussions about XLibre being banned on here? Are accounts that mention it getting banned? Is there just mass downvoting by partisans with some kind of agenda? I get that X11 has security issues, but NVIDIA drivers and Wayland still seem to have no support now and no support planned for the future, so Wayland is a non-negotiable non-option for many (most?) Linux desktop users, including mys…

Wayland supports nvidia cards, that they are not supported is FUD at this point in time.

I have an Nvidia card with the default Fedora install and it works on Wayland without having to do anything.

Re: Wayland is growing up. and now we don't have a choice

#28

Post by holowoodman »

mkesper wrote: post #10

TLDR (non-AI): The author raises very valid points about accessibility under Wayland. The "And Now We Don’t Have a Choice" subtitle seems to address that only Gnome seems to have usable accessibility under Wayland right now but can easily be misunderstood as "we have no alternative to Wayland". The author also mentions X11 sucked in many ways and that this transition also is a moment to rethink what proper accessibil…

Wayland is a perfect example of the second system effect and the sunk cost fallacy. X11 had problems, but instead of fixing them, developers threw the baby out with the bathwater, designed something completely byzantine and weird. Time was invested, so no stopping now or ever. The design of wayland introduces more problems than it solves, only by plastering over with yet another extra protocol that you have to implement in addition to wayland you might regain some lost functionality. Or paper over a design bug that will never be fixed.

Wayland is a dead horse. Made edible by sufficient fermentation and mobile towards the finish line by declaring the rot spreading over the line to be a victory. That Gnome just now gains parts of the functionality it had in X11, years later, while still being actually behind X11, while being an incompatible mess that leaves behind all other desktop environments to the detriment of the Linux ecosystem as a whole isn't actually a victory. Its the victory of the slightly-less-ruined after a devastating war.

Re: Wayland is growing up. and now we don't have a choice

#29

Post by vidarh »

bmacho wrote: post #21
vidarh wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I find the moderation on HN a bit heavyhanded at times: When the originator of the XLibre fork decided to push a heavily partisan political stance right there in the README, he made a choice that ensured that the project will be controversial. He can fix that very easily if he wants to. As someone who detest Wayland, I would very much like to see Xlibre be sucessful, but I'm not surprised a lot of people will r…

I don't think it is a good reason or even an acceptable reason to actively censor the news about the project, and prevent people to communicate about it. While XLibre is unfortunately political at the moment, this is not an excuse for what the HN staff is doing.

You keep assuming that it's HN staff, but HN articles very often get flagged by regular users when they get political, and having seen some of the comments on one of the other articles, including some of yours, I'm not the slightest bit surprised they got flagged.

If people want Xlibre to have a shot at HN at all, those are things to fix. Making unsubstantiated claims about HN staff is not going to change anything - if anything that too is likely to attract flagging.

Re: Wayland is growing up. and now we don't have a choice

#30

Post by opticfluorine »

anonym29 wrote: post #15
mkesper wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wayland supports nvidia cards, that they are not supported is FUD at this point in time.

I have an RTX 4060 Ti with latest drivers installed, KDE on Debian. On the login screen, I can select X11 or Wayland. Selecting X11 lets me log in fine, selecting Wayland and logging in results in a black screen and the only thing I can do to get any video out at all is switching to another TTY.

I have an RTX 4060 with latest drivers, KDE, and Arch. Wayland works perfectly for me. Maybe Debian has some outdated packages that haven't caught up yet?
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