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Ask YC: How can you recruit and reward non-founder programmers at early stages?

news.ycombinator.com

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Re: Ask YC: How can you recruit and reward non-founder programmers at early stages?

#21

Post by anamax »

cmos wrote: post #10
ahpeeyem wrote: post #9

As a developer, something I worked out with a startup trying to save some cash was that I would work for about half my normal hourly rate up-front. Then I would take a share in the startup's revenue (not equity - say 20% of gross income) until the other half of my hourly rate was made up for - this could take a year or two years etc, or if the startup is very successful it could only take 3 months; but it is capped t…

This is creative, but the problem with clever 'backpay' solutions and startups is that often they are starved for cash, so the extra 5% or 10% is valuable money that they could be using to grow the business. From an owner's perspective, I would never spend future revenue today. What if your not making enough money to pay the bills, yet have to give a percentage of revenue to a developer? They aren't going to stick ar…

> From an owner's perspective, I would never spend future revenue today. What if your not making enough money to pay the bills, yet have to give a percentage of revenue to a developer? They aren't going to stick around if things get tough.

If they developed the product that's producing said revenue, why does it matter whether they're still around?

Suppose that your product required an expensive piece of equipment and you didn't have enough cash to pay for it. (Or, you didn't want to pay cash.) Would you object to paying over time? Does the answer depend on whether the payments go to the manufacturer or a third-party?

Yes, you might well prefer terms with a fixed cost but there's a considerable risk that they'll get nothing and it's unlikely that they can reuse the code elsewhere. (Besides, you probably insisted on an exclusive license.)

Re: Ask YC: How can you recruit and reward non-founder programmers at early stages?

#22

Post by anamax »

> We have been working on a project part-time for over a year, but could use another rails developer to help out on our front-end work.

The fact that you've been working for a year isn't all that relevant. In fact, what you've got now isn't all that relevant. The important thing is what goes into the next step. If all your work is a small part of that, the folks doing the rest get the big piece of the pie.

Think of it from the other side. How much would someone pay you for what you've got now if they have to do the rest?

Re: Ask YC: How can you recruit and reward non-founder programmers at early stages?

#23

Post by vaksel »

cnu wrote: post #20
vaksel wrote: post #4

well right now the ball is in your court. There really aren't that many jobs out there, so you can get a decent programmer who'll take the pay cut just to have a job. But you do have some other options. You can give out different titles, lets say someone is just starting out, and you start calling them senior developer on paper, no impact now, but for their next job they'll be able to ask for a lot more money . The s…

Wouldn't you like to have first few programmers to be interested enough to work for 12 hours a day, all days a week than to let him think that getting a low pay means I can do a crappy work for 4 days?

A good programmer will do more work in 4 days, than a crappy one can do in 7. So its a net gain overall.

And the shorter work week will help you attract the higher quality of talent who are willing to take a paycut in order to get more free time.

If someone is good enough, why would he want to work his ass off for 12 hours a day for someone else. That type of workload is co-founder territory.

Re: Ask YC: How can you recruit and reward non-founder programmers at early stages?

#24

Post by racy_rick »

cnu wrote: post #20
vaksel wrote: post #4

well right now the ball is in your court. There really aren't that many jobs out there, so you can get a decent programmer who'll take the pay cut just to have a job. But you do have some other options. You can give out different titles, lets say someone is just starting out, and you start calling them senior developer on paper, no impact now, but for their next job they'll be able to ask for a lot more money . The s…

Wouldn't you like to have first few programmers to be interested enough to work for 12 hours a day, all days a week than to let him think that getting a low pay means I can do a crappy work for 4 days?

I think it would be a great incentive to work less hours than 40. I feel I only put out 'great programming' 6 hours a day. The rest of the time is wasted.

Having a great life-work policy as a startup may net more good people than wanting them all to work 80 hours for little pay and the promise of a payout. You will burn them out. That helps no one. Give them time off. Treat them well and they will do good work.

Also by not paying them well they will have to work smaller jobs outside of work. You NEED them to do this for the longevity of your company if you will not pay them. I have heard of companies barring people from working outside of their current job. They'd have to offer me more to have me sign.

Re: Ask YC: How can you recruit and reward non-founder programmers at early stages?

#25

Post by emmett »

m0nty wrote: post #12

My own experience of working in a startup (Bubble 1.0) was that (as techies) the web designer and I were completely ignored and counted out of the decision-making processes, even for deeply technical matters. I think this stemmed from the insecurity of the boss, and his second-in-command who was supposed to be "a marketing genius" but somehow never achieved his full potential ;) Anyway, we were excluded from meetings…

You're obviously not working at companies dominated by engineering (cough, Justin.tv, cough).

Re: Ask YC: How can you recruit and reward non-founder programmers at early stages?

#26

Post by m0nty »

emmett wrote: post #25
m0nty wrote: post #12

My own experience of working in a startup (Bubble 1.0) was that (as techies) the web designer and I were completely ignored and counted out of the decision-making processes, even for deeply technical matters. I think this stemmed from the insecurity of the boss, and his second-in-command who was supposed to be "a marketing genius" but somehow never achieved his full potential ;) Anyway, we were excluded from meetings…

You're obviously not working at companies dominated by engineering (cough, Justin.tv, cough).

In that specific case, I was. It was very strange... I mean, there were about three or four business plans, each of which centred on the Internet. When I finally left for a contract at double the money, the boss held another secret meeting where he told everyone not to talk to me for the duration of my notice, because I had been "disloyal". One of the office monkeys habitually referred to me as "Spacker" after that. Looking back, I have a headache ;)

Re: Ask YC: How can you recruit and reward non-founder programmers at early stages?

#28

Post by wheels »

cabalamat wrote: post #27
wheels wrote: post #17

In my opinion, if you don't have money to pay them yet, they're a co-founder, even if you've already been working on things for a year. General rules for finding co-founders apply.

And these rules are...?

I'm not sure there's a reasonable compendium, but Paul's written a lot on such in his essays. There's some here:

http://www.paulgraham.com/start.html

For me it's pretty simple, though finding and verifying is the tricky part.

- You have to be able to put up with them. A lot of them. Really a lot of them. It's kind of like getting married there.

- They should be able to do something essential to the company's survival. And they should do that while "getting" what you're doing and thinking it's special.

- You trust their judgement. Enough to bet a few years of your life on it.

"Art of the Start" also has some decent info there.

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