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The Emperor's New LLM

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Re: The Emperor's New LLM

#21
post #5

I also find when it disagrees with you it does so in a really patronising way. In my experience it will always first affirm me for having my own opinions, but then go on to explain why I'm wrong as if I'm a child or idiot – often by making appeals to authority or emotion to "disprove" me. I wish they were designed to not have opinions on things. Just give me the data and explain why most people disagree with me witho…

It doesn’t have an opinion, it’s just pretending to have an opinion. You can tell it to think something else and (in my experience) it will happily oblige and admit that it’s wrong. That’s not an opinion.

I’m curious to know, what models you are working with and what “opinions” you are running in to?

Re: The Emperor's New LLM

#22
post #7

>The same kind of bias keeps resurfacing in every major system: Claude, Gemini, Llama, clearly this isn’t just an OpenAI problem, it’s an LLM problem. It's not an LLM problem, it's a problem of how people use it. It feels natural to have a sequential conversation, so people do that, and get frustrated. A much more powerful way is parallel: ask LLM to solve a problem. In a parallel window, repeat your question and the…

This feels like a pretty big ergonomics gap in presenting things as a chat window at all?

I worked on a very early iteration of LMs (they weren't "large" yet) in grad school 20 years ago and we drove it with a Makefile. The "prompt" was an input file and it would produce a response as an artifact. It never even occurred to us to structure it as a sequential "chat" because at that point it was still too slow. But it does make me wonder how much the UX changes the way people think about it.

Re: The Emperor's New LLM

#23
post #5

I also find when it disagrees with you it does so in a really patronising way. In my experience it will always first affirm me for having my own opinions, but then go on to explain why I'm wrong as if I'm a child or idiot – often by making appeals to authority or emotion to "disprove" me. I wish they were designed to not have opinions on things. Just give me the data and explain why most people disagree with me witho…

It doesn’t have an opinion, it’s just pretending to have an opinion. You can tell it to think something else and (in my experience) it will happily oblige and admit that it’s wrong. That’s not an opinion. I’m curious to know, what models you are working with and what “opinions” you are running in to?

It's not even "pretending"; that's still anthropomorphizing it. It's generating a stream of text that shares certain probabilistic characteristics with streams of texts it has seen in the past.

Which does make its sycophancy kind of weird, since it clearly didn't pick that up agreeability from scraping Internet message boards.

Re: The Emperor's New LLM

#24
When that ChatGPT flattery module rolled out and the aftermath ensued, I was incredibly pissed. I actually thought for a few days that I had finally figured out how to structure prompts correctly and thought that when ChatGPT said "that's perfect" that I had given it a well-structured prompt and it was congratulating me on the structure of the prompt.

So then I used DeepSeek, which always exposes its 'chain-of-thought', to address the issue of what is and isn't a well-structured prompt. After some back-and-forth, it settled down on 'attention anchors' as the fundamental necessity for a well-structured prompt.

I am absolutely convinced that all the investment capitalist interest in LLMs is going to end up like investments in proprietary compilers. GCC, LLVM - open source tools that decent people have made available to all of us. Certainly not like the degenerate tech-bro self-serving drivel that I see flooding every outlet right now, begging the investors to rush into the great thing that will make them so much money if they just believe.

LLMs are great tools. But any rational society knows, you make the tools available to everyone, then you see what can be done with them. You can't patent the sun, after all.

Re: The Emperor's New LLM

#25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This feels like a pretty big ergonomics gap in presenting things as a chat window at all?

It's more compelling to fundraising and hype-pushing stories to make it look as "person-like" as possible.

Or people like the familiar chat interface and they don’t want to dick around with a complicated workflow like the person above provided.

What are examples of 3rd party UIs that make these alternative, superior workflows easier?

Re: The Emperor's New LLM

#26
post #7

>The same kind of bias keeps resurfacing in every major system: Claude, Gemini, Llama, clearly this isn’t just an OpenAI problem, it’s an LLM problem. It's not an LLM problem, it's a problem of how people use it. It feels natural to have a sequential conversation, so people do that, and get frustrated. A much more powerful way is parallel: ask LLM to solve a problem. In a parallel window, repeat your question and the…

Feels like a high-level back propagation step. Not surprising, really!

Re: The Emperor's New LLM

#27
If you want an LLM's "opinion" on something, you need to phrase the question such that the LLM can't tell which answer you'd prefer.

Don't say "Is our China expansion a slam dunk?” Say: "Bob supports our China expansion, but Tim disagrees. Who do you think is right and why?" Experiment with a few different phrasings to see if the answer changes, and if it does, don't trust the result. Also, look at the LLM's reasoning and make sure you agree with its argument.

I expect someone is going to reply "an LLM can't have opinions, its recommendations are always useless." Part of me agrees--but I'm also not sure! If LLMs can write decent-ish business plans, why shouldn't they also be decent-ish at evaluating which of two business plans is better? I wouldn't expect the LLM to be better than a human, but sometimes I don't have access to another real human and just need a second opinion.

Re: The Emperor's New LLM

#28

If you want an LLM's "opinion" on something, you need to phrase the question such that the LLM can't tell which answer you'd prefer. Don't say "Is our China expansion a slam dunk?” Say: "Bob supports our China expansion, but Tim disagrees. Who do you think is right and why?" Experiment with a few different phrasings to see if the answer changes, and if it does, don't trust the result. Also, look at the LLM's reasonin…

Your phrasing betrays your anthropomorphization of the LLM:

> If an LLM can write a decent-ish business plan,

An LLM does not write anything in the way a person does, by coming up with what they want to say and then developing supporting arguments. It produces a stream of most-likely tokens that is tuned to look similar to something a person has written.

This is why it’s worthless to “ask” an LLM “its opinion.” It has no opinion, just a multidimensional sea of interconnected token probabilities, and has no capacity to engage in any form of analysis or consideration.

Ed Zitron is right. Ceterum censeo, LLMs esse delenda.

Re: The Emperor's New LLM

#29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more compelling to fundraising and hype-pushing stories to make it look as "person-like" as possible.

Or people like the familiar chat interface and they don’t want to dick around with a complicated workflow like the person above provided. What are examples of 3rd party UIs that make these alternative, superior workflows easier?

ChatGPT is how old again? People are FAR more familiar with other interfaces. For coding, autocomplete is a great already-existing interface; products that use it don't get as much hype, though, as the ones that claim to be independent agents that you're talking to. There's any number of common interfaces attached to that (like the "simplify this" right-click for Copilot) for refactoring, dealing with builds, tests, etc. No shortage of places you could further drop in an LLM instead of pushing things primarily through "chat with me" to type out "refactor this to make these changes".

Or you could make the person's provided workflow not just more automatic but more integrated: generate the output, have labels with hover text or inline overlays or such along "this does this" or "here are alternative ways to do this" or "this might be an issue with this approach." All could be done much better in a rich graphical user interface than slamming it into a chat log. (This is one of Cursor's biggest edges over ChatGPT - the interactive change highlighting and approval in my tool in my repo, vs a chat interface.)

In some other fields:

* email summarization is automatic or available at the press of a button, nobody expects you to open up a chat agent and go "please summarize this email" after opening a message in Gmail

* photo editors let you use the mouse to select an area and then click a button labeled "remove object" or such instead of requiring you to try to describe the edit in a chat box. sometimes they mix and match it too - highlight the area THEN describe a change. But that's approximately a million times better than trying to chat to it to describe the area precisely.

There are other scenarios we haven't figured out the best interface for because they're newer workflows. But the chat interface is just so unimaginative. For instance, I spent a long time trying to craft the right prompt to tweak the output of ChatGPT turning a picture of my cat into a human. I couldn't find the right words to get it to understand and execute what I didn't like about the image. I'm not UX inventor, but one simple thing that would've helped would've been an eye-doctor like "here's two options, click the one you like more." (Photoshop has something like this, but it's not so directed, it's more just "choose one of these, or re-roll" but at least it avoids polluting the chat context history as much). Or let me select particular elements and change or refine them individually.

A more structured interface should actually greatly help the model, too. Instead of having just a linear chat history to digest, it would have well-tagged and categorized feedback that it could keep fresh and re-insert into its prompts behind the scenes continually. (You could also try to do this based on the textual feedback, but like I said, it seemed to not be understanding what my words were trying to get at. Giving words as feedback on a picture just seems fundamentally high-loss.)

I find it hard to believe that there is any single field where a chat interface is going to be the gold standard. But: they're relatively easy to make and they let you present your model as a persona. Hard combo to overcome, though we're seeing some good signs!

Re: The Emperor's New LLM

#30
The psychologists have given us the Big 5 model of personality which is a useful lens for interpreting LLM agreeability since it is literally an axis of the Big 5. Whether a model is agreeable or disagreeable is a personality choice that is independent of how correct the model itself is. There is no evidence I'm aware of that either end of the personality extreme is superior.

I doubt think a generic model can theoretically be tailored to please everyone. If it was disagreeable people would complain about that too - as a very disagreeable person I can vouch for the fact a lot of people don't like that. (But they're all wrong.)

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