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Plato got virtually everything wrong (2018)

prospectmagazine.co.uk

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Re: Plato got virtually everything wrong (2018)

#21

Post by ARandomerDude »

jerf wrote: post #14
rurban wrote: post #2

Not just Plato, Aristoteles even more. He kept Mechanics for 2000 in the dark ages, by assuming that heavier objects fall faster than lighter objects in proportion to their weight. He argued that a 10-pound stone would fall 10 times faster than a 1-pound stone. Continuous force is needed for continuous motion - without a force pushing it, a moving object would immediately stop. In fact continuous force leads to conti…

"He kept Mechanics for 2000 in the dark ages," You can blame him for being wrong at first, but somewhere around, oh, 200 years later (very, very conservatively), the people who treated him as an unimpeachable source really ought to be assigned about 100% of the responsibility. "A bit of mathematics would have helped." Your use of modern terminology in the previous sentence leads me to think you're not clear on how pr…

> you're not clear on how primitive mathematics is for Aristotle

Completely agree, and to add some color: Aristotle lived about 100 years after Pythagoras, meaning in his time a²+b²=c² was groundbreaking material.

Re: Plato got virtually everything wrong (2018)

#22

Post by MangoToupe »

pcthrowaway wrote: post #18
michaelsbradley wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After reading it, the feeling I had: I was hungry for lunch but all that was on hand was 3½ oreo cookies and half a small bottle of soda that's losing its fizz.

I suspect someone prompted an LLM: write an article that makes an unconventional argument about a philosopher.

Unconventional would be Bataille.

Re: Plato got virtually everything wrong (2018)

#23

Post by danielbln »

pcthrowaway wrote: post #18
michaelsbradley wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After reading it, the feeling I had: I was hungry for lunch but all that was on hand was 3½ oreo cookies and half a small bottle of soda that's losing its fizz.

I suspect someone prompted an LLM: write an article that makes an unconventional argument about a philosopher.

In 2018? That's pretty impressive.

Re: Plato got virtually everything wrong (2018)

#24

Post by pfdietz »

pcthrowaway wrote: post #18
michaelsbradley wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After reading it, the feeling I had: I was hungry for lunch but all that was on hand was 3½ oreo cookies and half a small bottle of soda that's losing its fizz.

I suspect someone prompted an LLM: write an article that makes an unconventional argument about a philosopher.

In 2018? Interesting argument.

Re: Plato got virtually everything wrong (2018)

#25

Post by reedf1 »

MangoToupe wrote: post #20
speak_plainly wrote: post #6

This is a midwit-level take on Plato. Arguments: Plato is responsible for a dualistic model of mind and matter that hampers our thinking today. Plato had an unrealistic ideal of what knowledge is. Plato had weird methodological assumptions. There are real criticisms you could make about Plato and his work, but this misses the mark by miles.

> This is a midwit-level take on Plato. Is this intended as a pejorative? Why not just say "dimwitted"? It would communicate your semantics much clearer.

Hopefully you wrote this ironically otherwise... QED?

Re: Plato got virtually everything wrong (2018)

#26

Post by api »

daseiner1 wrote: post #19
api wrote: post #8

I've believed for many years that Plato got something incredibly fundamentally wrong: he believed that logic, math, and the language of thought was primary and preceded existence. This error underlies all kinds of things all the way up to and including the present-day philosophical fad of "rationalism." (the Yudkowski variety) It's a popular idea because it's a "truthy" idea. When we introspect, thought feels primary…

You're essentially describing Idealism vs Materialism. Related is Nietzsche thinking he was the one to overturn Plato. Heidegger thought that Nietzsche was instead the logical conclusion of metaphysics. Heidegger's project was about "returning to the Question of Being" which he thought was first occluded by Plato, so he is in strong conversation with the Pre-Socratics. Deleuze has an interesting critique of Plato bui…

Yes, those are the proper terms.

Nietzsche was weird. He was not an idealist but he posited this transcendent idea of "will" which is basically New Thought. But I'm not an expert on Nietzsche so maybe there is more nuance here.

There is a kernel of truth to New Thought and its kindred ideas -- if you believe in your future success, you are less likely to become discouraged. In many cases success is claimed by those who are willing to fail over, and over, and over, and over again until they succeed. But that's a brain hack, not metaphysics. Your thoughts have determined your behavior, which has increased your odds of success, which can then be retroactively interpreted as magic if you are so inclined.

As far as hand waving it away -- I think the burden of proof is on those who claim such an extraordinary thing as "our thoughts determine reality." I want to see someone actually bend a spoon without touching it. Then we'll talk.

Re: Plato got virtually everything wrong (2018)

#27

Post by daseiner1 »

pcthrowaway wrote: post #18
michaelsbradley wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After reading it, the feeling I had: I was hungry for lunch but all that was on hand was 3½ oreo cookies and half a small bottle of soda that's losing its fizz.

I suspect someone prompted an LLM: write an article that makes an unconventional argument about a philosopher.

Hardly unconventional, a significant amount of the past 150 years of continental philosophy has involved critiques of Plato along the same lines as expressed here.

Re: Plato got virtually everything wrong (2018)

#28

Post by sixo »

MangoToupe wrote: post #20
speak_plainly wrote: post #6

This is a midwit-level take on Plato. Arguments: Plato is responsible for a dualistic model of mind and matter that hampers our thinking today. Plato had an unrealistic ideal of what knowledge is. Plato had weird methodological assumptions. There are real criticisms you could make about Plato and his work, but this misses the mark by miles.

> This is a midwit-level take on Plato. Is this intended as a pejorative? Why not just say "dimwitted"? It would communicate your semantics much clearer.

"Midwit" must be new to you, but in fact it has a particular meaning and sense in internet parlance. A midwit is a person who believes themselves to have transcended the dimwitted, when in actuality the dimwit is in better agreement with a genius/the very-well-informed.

Here: https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/iq-bell-curve-midwit

Re: Plato got virtually everything wrong (2018)

#29

Post by MangoToupe »

reedf1 wrote: post #25
MangoToupe wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a midwit-level take on Plato. Is this intended as a pejorative? Why not just say "dimwitted"? It would communicate your semantics much clearer.

Hopefully you wrote this ironically otherwise... QED?

I'm legitimately confused what was confusing about my comment. Are we supposed to presume that the author thinks themselves better or not?

Re: Plato got virtually everything wrong (2018)

#30

Post by SantalBlush »

speak_plainly wrote: post #6

This is a midwit-level take on Plato. Arguments: Plato is responsible for a dualistic model of mind and matter that hampers our thinking today. Plato had an unrealistic ideal of what knowledge is. Plato had weird methodological assumptions. There are real criticisms you could make about Plato and his work, but this misses the mark by miles.

My understanding is that Plato's major contribution to philosophy was his method of analysis, and not his specific ideas. Is that on the right track?
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