Let me end this conversation before it begins: "Why should the government tell me I need this many exits, or that I need a wheelchair ramp if no-one needs it?" "Because you're too short-sighted to see how important those things are. The government is watching out for you and those unfortunate enough to know you."
Silicon Valley Techies Fight to Save a Popular but Illegal Haven
21–30 of 108 posts
Re: Silicon Valley Techies Fight to Save a Popular but Illegal Haven
#22http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/384590180/an-events-spac... ^ Chip in here if you are inclined to support fellow hackers. They need to raise $250,000: “If they can’t comply, they can’t use the building as they want to,” said Anthony Ghiossi, the chief building official for the city. Hacker Dojo opened without a permit, Mr. Ghiossi pointed out. It is currently prohibited from hosting events that draw more than 49…
What I'm not seeing in these articles about this place is any sense of responsibility by Hacker Dojo's owners for not doing the due diligence to know what they were getting into in the first place. I don't consider well-intentioned cluelessness a barrier to innovation but your mileage may vary. Ellis Berns doesn't sound like a villain to me but rather just a guy in a tough situation. If the town of Mountain View does…
1. Sprinklers and fire exits? Arguably necessary.
2. ADA compliant bathrooms and wheelchair ramps? Not part of a reasonable MVP[1]. What if every website "had to" be readable in Braille and multiple tongues on day one, before one had the revenue to pay for that sort of thing?
3. As for "building permits", they are just a tax by the local government[2], like red light cameras:
In his opposition, Inks said the permit would
"incentivize" code enforcement officers to go out and find
major violations to bring in revenue. He added that city
officials already get paid a salary.
"To be clear ... this is about raising money," he said,
adding that similar permits and fees in other cities have
led to "further noncompliance" and the "collapse" of code
enforcement efforts, which led to the necessity of giving
property owners an "amnesty" period.
Inks pointed out that small businesses were already being
hit with fines for "petty" violations, such as a $500 fine
on the Milk Pail Market for selling pumpkins in the
parking lot.
In other words: give these guys an inch and they'll take a mile, asserting their author-it-ay the whole way. It always starts with something reasonable sounding (fire codes) and then moves to incentivizing the government for uncovering more violations and more fines. And it's very hard to figure out all the violations ahead of time [3]: As we wrote earlier, the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ)
is continuing its program of in-depth investigations of
hotels to determine whether they comply with the Americans
with Disabilities Act or ADA. The investigations are
called "sweeps" because they target all hotels in a given
geographic area. There is also some basis to believe that
the sweeps may now also focus on certain industries such
as hotels, restaurants and other places of public
accommodation.
...
In my experience, even the best design professionals
typically have an inadequate knowledge of all of the
accessibility standards. And local building official
approvals provide no protection against accessibility
violations.
Like all regulation, the ADA stuff is optimized to sound like a good idea. Who could be against providing access for the disabled? Then you realize the Department of Justice is spending scarce resources conducting sweeps on business owners, and that the total cost for a large ADA upgrade can easily be millions of dollars per facility. Just one example [4]: Owners and managers of swimming pools at hotels, city
recreation centers and public parks are scrambling to
install mechanical chair lifts to comply with new federal
requirements that all public pools be accessible to
disabled swimmers.
Some hotels fear the cost of the equipment or fines for
noncompliance could put them out of busines
The law doesn’t affect private clubs or pools owned by
neighborhood associations that aren’t open to the public.
It’s a massive and expensive undertaking. The Association
of Pool and Spa Professionals says its research shows that
between 235,000 and 310,000 pools require the upgrade.
Manufacturers estimate the lifts run $3,500 to $6,500, and
installation can double those costs. Altogether, owners
could face combined costs exceeding $1 billion.
A billion here, a billion there...soon you're talking real money. Anyway, this sort of thing is a big part of the reason that Bay Area housing prices are so high. And it all starts with taking regulators at their word that they are out to protect your health and safety.POSTSCRIPT: There's at least one obvious alternative to rule by unelected regulators. We already have reviews of everything else under the sun on Google, Amazon, Yelp, Zagat, Consumer Reports, and the like. Some of these reviewers we trust with life and death decisions, like Consumer Reports' car safety ratings. So just do the same for those codes that are truly crucial (e.g. fire codes), by allowing different certification authorities to compete. Maybe you start by expanding the domain of the Palo Alto and Mountain View fire departments such that they overlap, and a certification from either is sufficient to do business such that you get some competition into the mix. With just a little bit of choice, you'll suddenly see much more reasonable and cost-conscious behavior from regulators.
[1] I know it's "the law". But there are unjust laws.
[2] http://www.mv-voice.com/news/show_story.php?id=2260
[3] http://hotellaw.jmbm.com/2010/06/ada_defense_lawyer_implications.html
[4] http://www.heraldnews.com/news/x596769962/New-ADA-access-rules-may-scuttle-swimming-at-some-hotelsRe: Silicon Valley Techies Fight to Save a Popular but Illegal Haven
#23Earlier quoted context omitted.
I tried scanning the article to find out what made it illegal, and was fairly disappointed to find that (once again) I'd been lured by a sensationalist headline.
Yeah, the headline did make it sound like hackers were protecting The Pirate Bay headquarters or something... we should be able to downvote bad titles :)
Re: Silicon Valley Techies Fight to Save a Popular but Illegal Haven
#24Let me end this conversation before it begins: "Why should the government tell me I need this many exits, or that I need a wheelchair ramp if no-one needs it?" "Because you're too short-sighted to see how important those things are. The government is watching out for you and those unfortunate enough to know you."
I actually can kind of understand a wheel chair ramp. You will never need it if you don't have one, because nobody with a wheel chair will ever come. I can't imagine how frustrating it must be to be in a wheelchair and kept out of so many places. The rest? Most of it sounds like a combination of people wanting to believe nothing bad can ever happen to them and the nanny state wanting to keep itself employed.
Re: Silicon Valley Techies Fight to Save a Popular but Illegal Haven
#25Sigh, its not an 'illegal' haven it just isn't up to code. Which, unfortunately, you cannot sign a waiver that says I won't hold anyone responsible for me burning up in a fire here. And the Mtn View is kind of well known for being unhelpful in these regards.
It's funny to contrast to Noisebridge, which seems to me must surely be illegal by all sorts of codes. I wonder if the equivalent authorities in SF just have more important things to worry about.
Re: Silicon Valley Techies Fight to Save a Popular but Illegal Haven
#26Earlier quoted context omitted.
I tried scanning the article to find out what made it illegal, and was fairly disappointed to find that (once again) I'd been lured by a sensationalist headline.
Ugh: "What it does not have, according to city officials, are things that would make it an office. It doesn’t have enough fire exits, sprinklers or wheelchair-accessible bathrooms, as required by city regulations."
Software developers are known troublemakers. If you don't keep an eye on them, they'll type away all night optimizing code and drinking caffeine.
What about the children!?
Re: Silicon Valley Techies Fight to Save a Popular but Illegal Haven
#27Earlier quoted context omitted.
What I'm not seeing in these articles about this place is any sense of responsibility by Hacker Dojo's owners for not doing the due diligence to know what they were getting into in the first place. I don't consider well-intentioned cluelessness a barrier to innovation but your mileage may vary. Ellis Berns doesn't sound like a villain to me but rather just a guy in a tough situation. If the town of Mountain View does…
All regulation from the TSA to the local building officials is optimized to sound like a good idea. Who could be against health or safety? And that then becomes the thin end of the wedge, as the requirements and fees spiral from there. 1. Sprinklers and fire exits? Arguably necessary. 2. ADA compliant bathrooms and wheelchair ramps? Not part of a reasonable MVP[1]. What if every website "had to" be readable in Braill…
Re: Silicon Valley Techies Fight to Save a Popular but Illegal Haven
#28Earlier quoted context omitted.
I tried scanning the article to find out what made it illegal, and was fairly disappointed to find that (once again) I'd been lured by a sensationalist headline.
It says right in the article what made it illegal. Take some goddamn time to read if you're that interested.
Re: Silicon Valley Techies Fight to Save a Popular but Illegal Haven
#29Earlier quoted context omitted.
What I'm not seeing in these articles about this place is any sense of responsibility by Hacker Dojo's owners for not doing the due diligence to know what they were getting into in the first place. I don't consider well-intentioned cluelessness a barrier to innovation but your mileage may vary. Ellis Berns doesn't sound like a villain to me but rather just a guy in a tough situation. If the town of Mountain View does…
All regulation from the TSA to the local building officials is optimized to sound like a good idea. Who could be against health or safety? And that then becomes the thin end of the wedge, as the requirements and fees spiral from there. 1. Sprinklers and fire exits? Arguably necessary. 2. ADA compliant bathrooms and wheelchair ramps? Not part of a reasonable MVP[1]. What if every website "had to" be readable in Braill…
"Arguably"? No, they're absolutely necessary. It's a multi-tenant building. Why should my property and livelihood be threatened by your inability (or lack of desire) to follow the fire code?
"2. ADA compliant bathrooms and wheelchair ramps? Not part of a reasonable MVP[1]."
A reasonable MVP should include the ability for a social, interactive space to be inclusive. And sorry, it's not the same as a startup deciding what features to include in their initial launch (which arguably happened a long time ago - this, now, is when the details need to be nailed down). Oh, and the ADA is Federal Law, precisely because of businesses and such that felt that discriminating against a subset of the populace was an "acceptable" omission (for their "MVP" or otherwise).
"3. As for "building permits", they are just a tax by the local government"
That they are. Building permits are a method of more fairly distributing the cost of amenities and public services. You have ongoing property taxes for maintenance and upkeep, but a development may trigger a review - is water, power, sewage, traffic control, parking, adequate? Such reviews cost money. I'm confused though, how you then chose to quote an out-of-context example about "some" (unnamed) cities choosing to root out code violations - something not entirely the same, and actually largely designed to find people who have chosen to skirt their community obligations by not using the permit process.
For the record? I'm absolutely for the Hacker Dojo and wish more existed around here (and / or that I had the time / ability to found one).
Re: Silicon Valley Techies Fight to Save a Popular but Illegal Haven
#30Earlier quoted context omitted.
What I'm not seeing in these articles about this place is any sense of responsibility by Hacker Dojo's owners for not doing the due diligence to know what they were getting into in the first place. I don't consider well-intentioned cluelessness a barrier to innovation but your mileage may vary. Ellis Berns doesn't sound like a villain to me but rather just a guy in a tough situation. If the town of Mountain View does…
All regulation from the TSA to the local building officials is optimized to sound like a good idea. Who could be against health or safety? And that then becomes the thin end of the wedge, as the requirements and fees spiral from there. 1. Sprinklers and fire exits? Arguably necessary. 2. ADA compliant bathrooms and wheelchair ramps? Not part of a reasonable MVP[1]. What if every website "had to" be readable in Braill…