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Silicon Valley Techies Fight to Save a Popular but Illegal Haven

nytimes.com

21–30 of 108 posts

Re: Silicon Valley Techies Fight to Save a Popular but Illegal Haven

#21
post #2

Let me end this conversation before it begins: "Why should the government tell me I need this many exits, or that I need a wheelchair ramp if no-one needs it?" "Because you're too short-sighted to see how important those things are. The government is watching out for you and those unfortunate enough to know you."

The Great Fire of London agrees with you.

Re: Silicon Valley Techies Fight to Save a Popular but Illegal Haven

#22
post #16

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/384590180/an-events-spac... ^ Chip in here if you are inclined to support fellow hackers. They need to raise $250,000: “If they can’t comply, they can’t use the building as they want to,” said Anthony Ghiossi, the chief building official for the city. Hacker Dojo opened without a permit, Mr. Ghiossi pointed out. It is currently prohibited from hosting events that draw more than 49…

What I'm not seeing in these articles about this place is any sense of responsibility by Hacker Dojo's owners for not doing the due diligence to know what they were getting into in the first place. I don't consider well-intentioned cluelessness a barrier to innovation but your mileage may vary. Ellis Berns doesn't sound like a villain to me but rather just a guy in a tough situation. If the town of Mountain View does…

All regulation from the TSA to the local building officials is optimized to sound like a good idea. Who could be against health or safety? And that then becomes the thin end of the wedge, as the requirements and fees spiral from there.

1. Sprinklers and fire exits? Arguably necessary.

2. ADA compliant bathrooms and wheelchair ramps? Not part of a reasonable MVP[1]. What if every website "had to" be readable in Braille and multiple tongues on day one, before one had the revenue to pay for that sort of thing?

3. As for "building permits", they are just a tax by the local government[2], like red light cameras:

  In his opposition, Inks said the permit would 
  "incentivize" code enforcement officers to go out and find 
  major violations to bring in revenue. He added that city 
  officials already get paid a salary. 

  "To be clear ... this is about raising money," he said, 
  adding that similar permits and fees in other cities have 
  led to "further noncompliance" and the "collapse" of code 
  enforcement efforts, which led to the necessity of giving 
  property owners an "amnesty" period.

  Inks pointed out that small businesses were already being 
  hit with fines for "petty" violations, such as a $500 fine 
  on the Milk Pail Market for selling pumpkins in the   
  parking lot.  
In other words: give these guys an inch and they'll take a mile, asserting their author-it-ay the whole way. It always starts with something reasonable sounding (fire codes) and then moves to incentivizing the government for uncovering more violations and more fines. And it's very hard to figure out all the violations ahead of time [3]:

  As we wrote earlier, the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) 
  is continuing its program of in-depth investigations of 
  hotels to determine whether they comply with the Americans 
  with Disabilities Act or ADA. The investigations are 
  called "sweeps" because they target all hotels in a given 
  geographic area. There is also some basis to believe that 
  the sweeps may now also focus on certain industries such 
  as hotels, restaurants and other places of public 
  accommodation.

  ...

  In my experience, even the best design professionals   
  typically have an inadequate knowledge of all of the 
  accessibility standards. And local building official 
  approvals provide no protection against accessibility 
  violations.
Like all regulation, the ADA stuff is optimized to sound like a good idea. Who could be against providing access for the disabled? Then you realize the Department of Justice is spending scarce resources conducting sweeps on business owners, and that the total cost for a large ADA upgrade can easily be millions of dollars per facility. Just one example [4]:

  Owners and managers of swimming pools at hotels, city 
  recreation centers and public parks are scrambling to 
  install mechanical chair lifts to comply with new federal 
  requirements that all public pools be accessible to 
  disabled swimmers.

  Some hotels fear the cost of the equipment or fines for 
  noncompliance could put them out of busines

  The law doesn’t affect private clubs or pools owned by 
  neighborhood associations that aren’t open to the public.
  It’s a massive and expensive undertaking. The Association 
  of Pool and Spa Professionals says its research shows that 
  between 235,000 and 310,000 pools require the upgrade. 
  Manufacturers estimate the lifts run $3,500 to $6,500, and 
  installation can double those costs. Altogether, owners 
  could face combined costs exceeding $1 billion.
A billion here, a billion there...soon you're talking real money. Anyway, this sort of thing is a big part of the reason that Bay Area housing prices are so high. And it all starts with taking regulators at their word that they are out to protect your health and safety.

POSTSCRIPT: There's at least one obvious alternative to rule by unelected regulators. We already have reviews of everything else under the sun on Google, Amazon, Yelp, Zagat, Consumer Reports, and the like. Some of these reviewers we trust with life and death decisions, like Consumer Reports' car safety ratings. So just do the same for those codes that are truly crucial (e.g. fire codes), by allowing different certification authorities to compete. Maybe you start by expanding the domain of the Palo Alto and Mountain View fire departments such that they overlap, and a certification from either is sufficient to do business such that you get some competition into the mix. With just a little bit of choice, you'll suddenly see much more reasonable and cost-conscious behavior from regulators.

  [1] I know it's "the law". But there are unjust laws.
  [2] http://www.mv-voice.com/news/show_story.php?id=2260
  [3] http://hotellaw.jmbm.com/2010/06/ada_defense_lawyer_implications.html
  [4] http://www.heraldnews.com/news/x596769962/New-ADA-access-rules-may-scuttle-swimming-at-some-hotels

Re: Silicon Valley Techies Fight to Save a Popular but Illegal Haven

#23
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tried scanning the article to find out what made it illegal, and was fairly disappointed to find that (once again) I'd been lured by a sensationalist headline.

Yeah, the headline did make it sound like hackers were protecting The Pirate Bay headquarters or something... we should be able to downvote bad titles :)

Except the title is straight from the NY Times! I'm shocked they could publish a biased, misleading story.

Re: Silicon Valley Techies Fight to Save a Popular but Illegal Haven

#24
post #2

Let me end this conversation before it begins: "Why should the government tell me I need this many exits, or that I need a wheelchair ramp if no-one needs it?" "Because you're too short-sighted to see how important those things are. The government is watching out for you and those unfortunate enough to know you."

I actually can kind of understand a wheel chair ramp. You will never need it if you don't have one, because nobody with a wheel chair will ever come. I can't imagine how frustrating it must be to be in a wheelchair and kept out of so many places. The rest? Most of it sounds like a combination of people wanting to believe nothing bad can ever happen to them and the nanny state wanting to keep itself employed.

As the new mother of a 3 month old, I'm really getting a taste of how much it must suck to be in a wheelchair. The stroller can't go into half the places I try to visit. Even the bank wasn't wheelchair accessible. And in many stores, even if they are on the ground floor, the aisles are too narrow to navigate.

Re: Silicon Valley Techies Fight to Save a Popular but Illegal Haven

#25
post #8
post #3

Sigh, its not an 'illegal' haven it just isn't up to code. Which, unfortunately, you cannot sign a waiver that says I won't hold anyone responsible for me burning up in a fire here. And the Mtn View is kind of well known for being unhelpful in these regards.

It's funny to contrast to Noisebridge, which seems to me must surely be illegal by all sorts of codes. I wonder if the equivalent authorities in SF just have more important things to worry about.

Ironically, at Noisebridge they are wheelchair accessible and have sprinklers in the ceiling. The wheelchair/scooter users visit regularly. I'm 99% sure the sprinklers were already installed when they moved in. A lot of build-out work was done when moving to the current location.

Re: Silicon Valley Techies Fight to Save a Popular but Illegal Haven

#26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tried scanning the article to find out what made it illegal, and was fairly disappointed to find that (once again) I'd been lured by a sensationalist headline.

Ugh: "What it does not have, according to city officials, are things that would make it an office. It doesn’t have enough fire exits, sprinklers or wheelchair-accessible bathrooms, as required by city regulations."

Obviously these guys are up to no good with their illicit "hacking." Isn't that code for "making meth"? And a Dojo!? They probably run Fight Club style events too.

Software developers are known troublemakers. If you don't keep an eye on them, they'll type away all night optimizing code and drinking caffeine.

What about the children!?

Re: Silicon Valley Techies Fight to Save a Popular but Illegal Haven

#27
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I'm not seeing in these articles about this place is any sense of responsibility by Hacker Dojo's owners for not doing the due diligence to know what they were getting into in the first place. I don't consider well-intentioned cluelessness a barrier to innovation but your mileage may vary. Ellis Berns doesn't sound like a villain to me but rather just a guy in a tough situation. If the town of Mountain View does…

All regulation from the TSA to the local building officials is optimized to sound like a good idea. Who could be against health or safety? And that then becomes the thin end of the wedge, as the requirements and fees spiral from there. 1. Sprinklers and fire exits? Arguably necessary. 2. ADA compliant bathrooms and wheelchair ramps? Not part of a reasonable MVP[1]. What if every website "had to" be readable in Braill…

The great thing about the issues that you raise here is that they can be impacted by voting for city council members who are more supportive of startups. I'm not familiar with city politics in Mountain View, but maybe if the community got behind candidates who were in favor of relaxing these restrictions there could be some change there.

Re: Silicon Valley Techies Fight to Save a Popular but Illegal Haven

#28
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tried scanning the article to find out what made it illegal, and was fairly disappointed to find that (once again) I'd been lured by a sensationalist headline.

It says right in the article what made it illegal. Take some goddamn time to read if you're that interested.

The title is supposed to tell us whether the article is worth reading. Most anyone who cares about Hacker Dojo already knew about their retrofit funding problem; there's little fresh news here.

Re: Silicon Valley Techies Fight to Save a Popular but Illegal Haven

#29
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I'm not seeing in these articles about this place is any sense of responsibility by Hacker Dojo's owners for not doing the due diligence to know what they were getting into in the first place. I don't consider well-intentioned cluelessness a barrier to innovation but your mileage may vary. Ellis Berns doesn't sound like a villain to me but rather just a guy in a tough situation. If the town of Mountain View does…

All regulation from the TSA to the local building officials is optimized to sound like a good idea. Who could be against health or safety? And that then becomes the thin end of the wedge, as the requirements and fees spiral from there. 1. Sprinklers and fire exits? Arguably necessary. 2. ADA compliant bathrooms and wheelchair ramps? Not part of a reasonable MVP[1]. What if every website "had to" be readable in Braill…

"1. Sprinklers and fire exits? Arguably necessary."

"Arguably"? No, they're absolutely necessary. It's a multi-tenant building. Why should my property and livelihood be threatened by your inability (or lack of desire) to follow the fire code?

"2. ADA compliant bathrooms and wheelchair ramps? Not part of a reasonable MVP[1]."

A reasonable MVP should include the ability for a social, interactive space to be inclusive. And sorry, it's not the same as a startup deciding what features to include in their initial launch (which arguably happened a long time ago - this, now, is when the details need to be nailed down). Oh, and the ADA is Federal Law, precisely because of businesses and such that felt that discriminating against a subset of the populace was an "acceptable" omission (for their "MVP" or otherwise).

"3. As for "building permits", they are just a tax by the local government"

That they are. Building permits are a method of more fairly distributing the cost of amenities and public services. You have ongoing property taxes for maintenance and upkeep, but a development may trigger a review - is water, power, sewage, traffic control, parking, adequate? Such reviews cost money. I'm confused though, how you then chose to quote an out-of-context example about "some" (unnamed) cities choosing to root out code violations - something not entirely the same, and actually largely designed to find people who have chosen to skirt their community obligations by not using the permit process.

For the record? I'm absolutely for the Hacker Dojo and wish more existed around here (and / or that I had the time / ability to found one).

Re: Silicon Valley Techies Fight to Save a Popular but Illegal Haven

#30
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I'm not seeing in these articles about this place is any sense of responsibility by Hacker Dojo's owners for not doing the due diligence to know what they were getting into in the first place. I don't consider well-intentioned cluelessness a barrier to innovation but your mileage may vary. Ellis Berns doesn't sound like a villain to me but rather just a guy in a tough situation. If the town of Mountain View does…

All regulation from the TSA to the local building officials is optimized to sound like a good idea. Who could be against health or safety? And that then becomes the thin end of the wedge, as the requirements and fees spiral from there. 1. Sprinklers and fire exits? Arguably necessary. 2. ADA compliant bathrooms and wheelchair ramps? Not part of a reasonable MVP[1]. What if every website "had to" be readable in Braill…

All of which ignores my first point that the owners of Hacker Dojo failed to do their due diligence here. IANAL (neither a lawyer nor a libertarian) but a couple hours with the right lawyer perusing their lease upfront and none of this would be happening because either the lease would have been amended to let them off of it in the case of this sort of event or they'd have been told to walk away and build this somewhere else.
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