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Anthropic co-founder on cutting access to Windsurf

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Re: Anthropic co-founder on cutting access to Windsurf

#21

This seems pretty reasonable to me. I don't really understand why Windsurf, owned by OpenAI (allegedly), should expect to have API access to their main competitor's API. People can still bring their own key and use whatever models they want in that way.

This seems odd to me, I don't expect bakery to reject selling me a bread this morning, because I started working in another bakery nearby.

No, but if YOU opened up a bakery and were packing their bread and re-selling it, they might not like that. This happened before and it's not great.

https://www.businessinsider.com/restaurant-accused-reselling...

Re: Anthropic co-founder on cutting access to Windsurf

#23
post #14

Any app built on top of these model providers could become a competitor to these providers. Since the model providers are currently in the lowest-margin part of the business, it is likely they will try to expand in to the app layer and start pulling the rug from under these businesses built on top of them. Amazon had a similar tactic, where it would use other sellers on its marketplace to validate market demand for p…

The model providers are not in the low margin part of the business. The unit economies of paid-per-token APIs are clearly favorable, and scale amazingly well as long as you can procure enough compute. I think it's the subscription-based models that are tricky to make work in the long term, since they suffer from adverse selection. Only the heaviest users will pay for a subscription, and those are the users that you e…

What evidence do you have that there's decent margin on the APIs?

Re: Anthropic co-founder on cutting access to Windsurf

#24
post #15

I'm sure this all fits neatly into their EA "maximizing positive outcomes for humanity" world-view somehow.

It could be argued from Antrhopics perspective that OpenAI and Worldcoin are not positive for humanity so this in fact necessary

Re: Anthropic co-founder on cutting access to Windsurf

#25
post #14

Any app built on top of these model providers could become a competitor to these providers. Since the model providers are currently in the lowest-margin part of the business, it is likely they will try to expand in to the app layer and start pulling the rug from under these businesses built on top of them. Amazon had a similar tactic, where it would use other sellers on its marketplace to validate market demand for p…

The model providers are not in the low margin part of the business. The unit economies of paid-per-token APIs are clearly favorable, and scale amazingly well as long as you can procure enough compute. I think it's the subscription-based models that are tricky to make work in the long term, since they suffer from adverse selection. Only the heaviest users will pay for a subscription, and those are the users that you e…

subscription model is just there to serve B2C side of business which in turn them into B2B side

antrophic said themselves that enterprise is where the money at, but you cant just serve enterprise on the get go right

this is where the B2C indirect influence comes

Re: Anthropic co-founder on cutting access to Windsurf

#26

Any app built on top of these model providers could become a competitor to these providers. Since the model providers are currently in the lowest-margin part of the business, it is likely they will try to expand in to the app layer and start pulling the rug from under these businesses built on top of them. Amazon had a similar tactic, where it would use other sellers on its marketplace to validate market demand for p…

Even to the extent that’s true, that doesn’t seem to be the issue here.

OpenAI is acquiring Windsurf which is its most direct competitor.

Re: Anthropic co-founder on cutting access to Windsurf

#27

These are two different products. It's like SpaceX launching satellites for competitive satellite internet services. They didn't care that they were providing launch capabilities for a competitor and neither should Anthropic. What if Apple stopped allowing you to use an iPhone if you worked at Google?

"They didn't care that they were providing launch capabilities for a competitor"

Yeah because another internet provider did not have SpaceX reusable rocket technology

its not really quite the same you know

Re: Anthropic co-founder on cutting access to Windsurf

#29
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The model providers are not in the low margin part of the business. The unit economies of paid-per-token APIs are clearly favorable, and scale amazingly well as long as you can procure enough compute. I think it's the subscription-based models that are tricky to make work in the long term, since they suffer from adverse selection. Only the heaviest users will pay for a subscription, and those are the users that you e…

> The model providers are not in the low margin part of the business. Many people believe that model providers are running at negative margin. (I don't know how true it is.)

They probably have been running at negative margin, or at the very least started that way. But between hardware and software developments, their cost structures are undoubtedly improving over time —- otherwise we wouldn’t be seeing pricing drop with each new generation of models. In fact, I would bet that their margins are improving in spite of the price drops.

Re: Anthropic co-founder on cutting access to Windsurf

#30
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The model providers are not in the low margin part of the business. The unit economies of paid-per-token APIs are clearly favorable, and scale amazingly well as long as you can procure enough compute. I think it's the subscription-based models that are tricky to make work in the long term, since they suffer from adverse selection. Only the heaviest users will pay for a subscription, and those are the users that you e…

> The model providers are not in the low margin part of the business. Many people believe that model providers are running at negative margin. (I don't know how true it is.)

Yes, many people believe that, but it doesn't seem to be an evidence-based belief. I've written about this in some detail[0][1] before. But since just linking to one's own writing is a bit gauche and doesn't make for a good discussion, I'll summarize :)

1. There is no point in providing paid APIs at negative margins, since there's no platform power in having a larger paid API share (paid access can't be used for training data, no lock-in effects, no network effects, no customer loyalty, no pricing power on the supply side since Nvidia doesn't give preferential treatment to large customers). Even selling access at break-even makes no sense, since that is just compute you're not using for training, or not selling to other companies desperate for compute.

2. There are 3rd-party providers selling only the compute, not models, who have even less reason to sell at a loss. Their prices are comparable to 1st-party providers.

3. Deepseek published their inference cost structure for R1. According to that data their paid API traffic is very lucrative (their GPU rental costs for inference are under 20% of their standard pricing, i.e. >80% operating margins; and the rental costs would cover power, cooling, depreciation of the capital investment).

Insofar as frontier labs are unprofitable, I think it's primarily due to them giving out vast amounts of free access.

[0] https://www.snellman.net/blog/archive/2025-06-02-llms-are-ch...

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44165521

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