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The Rise of 'Vibe Hacking' Is the Next AI Nightmare

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Re: The Rise of 'Vibe Hacking' Is the Next AI Nightmare

#21
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rather, it’s many different types of software running on many different systems around the world, each funded by a different party with its own motives. This is no movie…

True, but the system only exists because it is currently economically viable. A mass taboo against AI would change that. And many people outside of tech already dislike AI a lot, so it's not inconceivable that this dislike could be fuelled into a worldwide taboo.

> True, but the system only exists because it is currently economically viable.

The "system" isn't a thing, but more like running apps, some run on servers, other consumer hardware. And the parts that run on consumer hardware will be around even if 99% of the current hyped up ecosystem dies overnight, people won't suddenly stop trying to run these things locally.

Re: The Rise of 'Vibe Hacking' Is the Next AI Nightmare

#23
post #4

Software security has been running off large-scale automation for over a decade. LLMs might or might not be a step change in that automation (I'm optimistic but uncertain), but, unlike in conventional software development, the standard arguments about craft and thoughtfulness aren't operative here. If there was an argument to be had, it would have been had around the time Google stood up the mega fuzzing farms. A fun…

I kinda see the different side of the coin.

"a determined and amoral adversary" - I'd kinda disagree with this (the amoral adversary part being necessary). If you crawl through the vast data breach notification lists that many states are starting to keep - MA, ME, etc. there are so many of them (like literally daily banks, hospitals, etc. are having to report "data breaches" that never ever make the news) - not all of them are happening cause of ransomware. Sometimes it's just someone accidentally not locking a bucket down or not putting proper authorization on a path that should have it. It gets found/fixed but they still have to notify the state. However, if someone doesn't know what they are looking at, or it's a program so it really has no clue what it's looking at and just sees a bunch of data - there's no malicious intent but that doesn't mean that bad things can't happen because that data has now leaked out.

Guess what a lot of these LLMs are training on?

So while Andrey's software is finding all sorts of interesting stuff there's a bunch of crap being generated inadvertently that is just bad.

Re: The Rise of 'Vibe Hacking' Is the Next AI Nightmare

#24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good luck shutting down the LLM running on my MacBook. The Pandora’s Box is open. It’s over.

Plenty of past civilizations have thought they were invulnerable. In fact, most entities with power think that they can never be taken down. But countless empires in the past have fallen, and countless powerful people have lost their wealth and power overnight.

There's a big difference between a civilization being taken down, and civilization being taken down.

Re: The Rise of 'Vibe Hacking' Is the Next AI Nightmare

#25
I've written tailored offensive security tools and malware for Red Teams for around a decade and now work in the AI space.

The argument that LLMs will enable "super powered" malware and that existing security solutions won't be able to keep up, is completely overblown. I see 0 evidence of this being possible with the current incarnation of "AI" or LLMs.

"Vide coded" malware will be easier to detect if the people creating it don't understand what the code is actually doing and will result in incredible amount of OpSec fails when the malware actually hits the target systems.

I do agree that "vide coding" will accelerate malware development and generally increase the amount of attacks to orgs. However if you're already applying bog-standard security practices like defense in depth, you shouldn't be concerned about this. If anything, you might want to start thinking about SOC automations in order to reduce alert fatigue.

Stay far away from anyone trying to sell you products to defend against "AI enabled malware". As of right now it's 100% snake oil.

Also, this is probably one of the cringiest articles on the subject I've ever read and is only meant to spread FUD.

I do find the banner video extremely entertaining however.

Re: The Rise of 'Vibe Hacking' Is the Next AI Nightmare

#26
post #20
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a software update could easily cripple its ability to run on your local machine unless you plan to never update again

> a software update could easily cripple its ability to run on your local machine A software update collaborated on by Microsoft, Apple + countless of volunteer groups managing various other distributions? The cat really is out of the bag. You could probably make it a death penalty in the whole world and some people would still use it secretly. Once things like this run on consumer hardware, I think it's already too…

the nvidia/AMD/apple chips all require proprietary firmware blobs, it can be enforced in there

yes you won't get people that won't ever update, but you'll get the overwhelming majority

and the hardware the never-updaters use will eventually fail and won't be able to be replaced

also: ban the release of new "open" models, they will slowly become out of date and useless

combine these, and the problem will solve itself over time

Re: The Rise of 'Vibe Hacking' Is the Next AI Nightmare

#27
post #26
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a software update could easily cripple its ability to run on your local machine A software update collaborated on by Microsoft, Apple + countless of volunteer groups managing various other distributions? The cat really is out of the bag. You could probably make it a death penalty in the whole world and some people would still use it secretly. Once things like this run on consumer hardware, I think it's already too…

the nvidia/AMD/apple chips all require proprietary firmware blobs, it can be enforced in there yes you won't get people that won't ever update, but you'll get the overwhelming majority and the hardware the never-updaters use will eventually fail and won't be able to be replaced also: ban the release of new "open" models, they will slowly become out of date and useless combine these, and the problem will solve itself…

> they will slowly become out of date and useless

Models released today are already useful for a bunch of stuff, maybe over the course of 100 year they could be considered "out of date", but they don't exactly bitrot by themselves because they sit on a disk, not sure why'd they suddenly "expire" or whatever you try to hint at.

And even over the course of 100 year, people will continue the machine learning science, regardless if it's legal or not, the potential benefits (for a select few) seems to be too good for people to ignore, which is why the current bubble is happening in the first place.

Re: The Rise of 'Vibe Hacking' Is the Next AI Nightmare

#28
Alright folks.. To qualify myself. I am a vulnerability Researcher @ MIT. My day to day research concerns embedded hardware/software security. Some of my current/past endeavors involve AI/ML integration and understanding just how useful it actually is for finding/exploiting vulnerabilities. Just last week my lab hosted a conference that included MIT folks and the outsiders we invite. One talk was on the current state of AI/LLM. To keep things short, this article is sensationalized and overstates the utility of AI/ML on finding actual novel vulnerabilities. As it currently stands, LLMs cannot even reliably find bugs other less sophisticated tools could have found in much less time. Binary Exploitation is a great place for illustrating the wall you’ll hit using LLMs hoping for a 0day. While LLMs can help with things like setting up fuzzers or maybe giving you a place to start manual analysis, their utility kind of stops there. They cannot reliably catch memory corruption bugs that a basic fuzzers or sanitizers could have found within seconds. This makes sense for that class of bugs. LLMs are fuzzy logic and these issues aren’t reliably found with that paradigm. That’s the whole reason we have fuzzers; they find subtle bugs worth triaging. You’ve seen how well LLMs count, it’s no surprise they might miss many of the same things a humans would but fuzzers wouldn’t (think UaF, OOB, etc). All the other tools you see written for script kiddies yield the same amount of false positives they could have gotten with other tools that already exist.. I can go on and on but I am on shuttle, typing on small phone. TLDR: Article is trying to say LLMs are super hackers already and that’s simply false. They definitely have allure for script kiddies. In the future this might change. LLMs time saving aspects are definitely worth checking out for static binary analysis. Binary Ninja with Sidekick saves a lot of time! But again. You still need to double check important things!

Re: The Rise of 'Vibe Hacking' Is the Next AI Nightmare

#29

I've written tailored offensive security tools and malware for Red Teams for around a decade and now work in the AI space. The argument that LLMs will enable "super powered" malware and that existing security solutions won't be able to keep up, is completely overblown. I see 0 evidence of this being possible with the current incarnation of "AI" or LLMs. "Vide coded" malware will be easier to detect if the people crea…

I too write automated offensive tooling. We actually wrote a project, vulnhuntr, that found the first autonomously-discovered 0day using AI. Feed it a GitHub repo and it tracks down user input from source to sink and analyzes for web-based vulnerabilities. Agree this article is incredibly cringy and standard best practices in network and development security will use the same AI efficiency gains to keep up (more or less).

What bothers me the most about this article is that the tools that attackers use to do stuff like find 0days in code are the same tools that defenders can use to find the 0day first and fix it. It's not like offensive tooling is being developed in a vacuum and the world is ending as "armies of script kiddies" will suddenly drain every bank account in the world. Automated defense and code analysis is improving at a similar rate as automated offense.

In this awful article's defense though, I would argue that red team will always have an advantage over blue team because blue team is by definition reactionary. So as tech continues it's exponential advancements, the advantage gap for the top 1% red teamers is likely to scale accordingly.

Re: The Rise of 'Vibe Hacking' Is the Next AI Nightmare

#30
post #12
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's just software running on a server...this isn't a Johnny Depp movie [1]. Just flip the power switch on the racks. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jg3mSf561w

Rather, it’s many different types of software running on many different systems around the world, each funded by a different party with its own motives. This is no movie…

And every single one has a power switch.

I get the general "too many variables" argument, but the idea that humans have no means of stopping any of these apps/systems/algorithms/etc if they get "out of control" (a farce in itself as it's a chat bot) is ridiculous.

It's very interesting to see how badly people want to be living in and being an active participant in a sci-fi flick. I think that's far more concerning than the AI itself.

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