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How the United States Gave Up Being a Science Superpower

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Re: How the United States Gave Up Being a Science Superpower

#21

Post by reubenswartz »

spamizbad wrote: post #2

This saddens me greatly. I think to certain people, this is viewed as a necessary trade-off to curb the political power and influence of the so-called "Professional Managerial Class" in the United States, due to fears that a version of James Burnham's prediction[1] would come true. When this discourse comes up on sites like Twitter, and people ask why we're doing it, supporters of these cuts ultimately lay the blame…

There are plenty of real issues with higher education, but the attacks on research are using protests and other things as a fig leaf.

We've seen this movie before, when Germany destroyed the world's leading research university system in the name of control and ideology. Most people would not want to repeat that, while it seems some in power feel differently.

Re: How the United States Gave Up Being a Science Superpower

#22

Post by noobermin »

spamizbad wrote: post #2

This saddens me greatly. I think to certain people, this is viewed as a necessary trade-off to curb the political power and influence of the so-called "Professional Managerial Class" in the United States, due to fears that a version of James Burnham's prediction[1] would come true. When this discourse comes up on sites like Twitter, and people ask why we're doing it, supporters of these cuts ultimately lay the blame…

You do know the "current admin" is the managerial class right? It's just a different faction of it.

Re: How the United States Gave Up Being a Science Superpower

#23

Post by Garlef »

AtlasBarfed wrote: post #3
spamizbad wrote: post #2

This saddens me greatly. I think to certain people, this is viewed as a necessary trade-off to curb the political power and influence of the so-called "Professional Managerial Class" in the United States, due to fears that a version of James Burnham's prediction[1] would come true. When this discourse comes up on sites like Twitter, and people ask why we're doing it, supporters of these cuts ultimately lay the blame…

Does the book describe how there's a professional managerial class that took over higher education inflating its costs, degrading its services, undermining its ideals, watering down it's standards? Colleges need to get back to their mission and ditch the sports, drinking, non-academic facilities. Get back to teaching, standards and research and stop ripping off students to backbreaking loan debt.

Drinking has been an integral part of universities for a long, long time.

Re: How the United States Gave Up Being a Science Superpower

#24

Post by ne0flex »

jagger27 wrote: post #10
f6v wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, because scientific funding in Europe magically appears out of nowhere amid record defense spending.

Much of the best science ever done was done in a military context.

Very true, among them: - Nuclear energy - Internet & GPS - Numerous medical advancements (rapid medical response techniques, advanced trauma care, etc.)

It's a dual-edged sword.

Re: How the United States Gave Up Being a Science Superpower

#25

Post by palmotea »

spamizbad wrote: post #8
AtlasBarfed wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does the book describe how there's a professional managerial class that took over higher education inflating its costs, degrading its services, undermining its ideals, watering down it's standards? Colleges need to get back to their mission and ditch the sports, drinking, non-academic facilities. Get back to teaching, standards and research and stop ripping off students to backbreaking loan debt.

> Colleges need to get back to their mission and ditch the sports, drinking, non-academic facilities. Get back to teaching, standards and research and stop ripping off students to backbreaking loan debt. Can you explain how cutting research funding achieve these goal? Especially since many of the schools most impacted by these cuts are very much not party or college sports schools. Those most impacted are R1 schools:…

>> Does the book describe how there's a professional managerial class that took over higher education inflating its costs, degrading its services, undermining its ideals, watering down it's standards?

>> Colleges need to get back to their mission and ditch the sports, drinking, non-academic facilities. Get back to teaching, standards and research and stop ripping off students to backbreaking loan debt.

> Can you explain how cutting research funding achieve these goal?

It doesn't, but I think there's a real connection there. The cutting funding is a backlash, and the correct response to that is to change to achieve a more secure societal position that doesn't invite a backlash. The current cuts to research funding are the direct result of universities allowing themselves to become identified as elements of a particular political faction. But the universities have been weakened and have few allies to call on, because they're now widely perceived to be expensive rip-offs, etc.

Re: How the United States Gave Up Being a Science Superpower

#26

Post by MisterTea »

reubenswartz wrote: post #21
spamizbad wrote: post #2

This saddens me greatly. I think to certain people, this is viewed as a necessary trade-off to curb the political power and influence of the so-called "Professional Managerial Class" in the United States, due to fears that a version of James Burnham's prediction[1] would come true. When this discourse comes up on sites like Twitter, and people ask why we're doing it, supporters of these cuts ultimately lay the blame…

There are plenty of real issues with higher education, but the attacks on research are using protests and other things as a fig leaf. We've seen this movie before, when Germany destroyed the world's leading research university system in the name of control and ideology. Most people would not want to repeat that, while it seems some in power feel differently.

> while it seems some in power feel differently.

They have so much money they dont think anything can ever happen to them save for having their money taken away by some boogeyman. Everything else is a problem for the poors.

Re: How the United States Gave Up Being a Science Superpower

#27

Post by fluidcruft »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #14
spamizbad wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Colleges need to get back to their mission and ditch the sports, drinking, non-academic facilities. Get back to teaching, standards and research and stop ripping off students to backbreaking loan debt. Can you explain how cutting research funding achieve these goal? Especially since many of the schools most impacted by these cuts are very much not party or college sports schools. Those most impacted are R1 schools:…

Cutting administration achieves these goals. (It's not the skyrocketing number of tenured professors that is driving college costs.) Now, do you have to cut research in order to cut administration? Research takes a lot of administration, but that should be paid for by the research , not by the students.

It seems like capping indirect rates achieves the goal of defunding administrative bloat while preserving funding to the actual research?

Re: How the United States Gave Up Being a Science Superpower

#29

Post by spacemadness »

roxolotl wrote: post #11
spamizbad wrote: post #2

This saddens me greatly. I think to certain people, this is viewed as a necessary trade-off to curb the political power and influence of the so-called "Professional Managerial Class" in the United States, due to fears that a version of James Burnham's prediction[1] would come true. When this discourse comes up on sites like Twitter, and people ask why we're doing it, supporters of these cuts ultimately lay the blame…

I think the trauma argument is spot on here. The pandemic exposed the tenuous nature of the system we all exist in and for many that was simply too much. It is a deeply disconcerting thing to really sit with the knowledge that we depend upon systems so complex that no single person can fix or manage or describe them and that small perturbations can cause damage that is visible to everyone. When that was all laid bare…

And we never really mourned the deaths of the people that died of covid so far collectively. I still find this weird.
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