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Sail-Trim Simulator

simulator.atterwind.info

21–30 of 31 posts

Re: Sail-Trim Simulator

#21

One of the most mind bending facts I tell people, even sailors, is that sailboats are not limited to sailing at the true windspeed. Sails are wings, not bags. In fact, a boat's top speed is directly dictated by its ability to point into the wind (assuming, for example, the boat is not physically limited by it's displacement hull speed, as in the case of hydrofoils). The consequences of this simple truth are manifest.…

Into the irons/in irons being a dead sailing area, where boat is head on into the wind (wind's eye). A lot of people get surprised that you can sail upwind as well.

Re: Sail-Trim Simulator

#22
post #5
post #4

Very cool demo... Most yachts have polar charts, and the speed is a function of sail area, heading, wind speed and direction amongst other things. Are you considering calculating estimated boat speed based on given conditions and controllable variables?

Not my demo! But I got inspired by it some time ago to build a simulator for monohulls which uses a physics based VPP to calculate the boat speed based on input controls like mainsheet, jib sheet, travelers, backstay and so on at https://www.sailrhythm.com/ It uses Catalina 36 Tall Rig as a base model for sailboat parameters and was calibrated to match ORC-published polars for it within 1-5% on both close, beam and b…

What are you using for your physics engine, or how did you go about designing your aero model? I've been poking about with wing aero for a toy flight simulator and there's not a lot written about the design process of modeling this stuff in near-real time.

Re: Sail-Trim Simulator

#23
It would be great if it would be able to limit the max speed based on the heading, right now the slider allows the same max speed for any heading. On this boats I suspect max speed is achieved going on a beam reach (90 degrees to the wind)

Re: Sail-Trim Simulator

#25
Thanks for creating this!

I am still learning and would love to use this, so I can validate my thoughts :D What would be great: - change model. I sail mono hull and would love to have - like others stated. Som kind of indicator that we are moving - or clouds

Re: Sail-Trim Simulator

#26
The blue cones are probably the wind coming to the boat but there is a wall of cones a little further away, visible by zooming out. Those cones don't have the same directions of the ones close to the boat. It's probably apparent wind (close to the boat) and real wind (further away.) It would help to start with a zoom level with both winds visible.

The biggest problem that is puzzling everybody is that speed never changes. I eventually decided that this is because the app calculates the setup of the mainsail to get the desired boat heading and speed given the wind. If you keep the heading constant and change the boat speed you see that the sail rotates around the mast.

It's the opposite of what we do when sailing: we set the sail to a shape and direction (let me use these terms) to go somewhere. In this simulator we do it backwards and adjust the wind to get the sail into a shape and direction.

Re: Sail-Trim Simulator

#27
post #7

I am a lake sailer. And without landmarks or anything it is impossible for me to perceive the boat as moving.

Eventually it made sense that boat-speed only changes the "apparent wind", as it's only simulating wind-boat interactions, not water-boat interactions.

But to get the sail-wind interaction you need the movement of the boat. To get the movement you then need the hull-water interaction. Modeling just a static, vertical, sail doesnt really demonstrate anything practical. It is more akin to similating a captive foil in a wind tunnel.

The obvious next step would be to calculate the cog and tilt the entire rig in response to sail forces, which sheds wind until a balance point is reached, or the boat flips.

Re: Sail-Trim Simulator

#28
post #5
post #4

Very cool demo... Most yachts have polar charts, and the speed is a function of sail area, heading, wind speed and direction amongst other things. Are you considering calculating estimated boat speed based on given conditions and controllable variables?

Not my demo! But I got inspired by it some time ago to build a simulator for monohulls which uses a physics based VPP to calculate the boat speed based on input controls like mainsheet, jib sheet, travelers, backstay and so on at https://www.sailrhythm.com/ It uses Catalina 36 Tall Rig as a base model for sailboat parameters and was calibrated to match ORC-published polars for it within 1-5% on both close, beam and b…

Little confused. So you're mostly giving credit to a demo that then inspired your own demo?

Either way, both demos are fairly interesting, especially since there's so little exploration of sailing and the physics involved most of the time.

The second sailrhythm demo seems rather high quality and a better representation of the physics involved. Not sure if you're planning to work on it further, yet putting the rudder heading up near the top would be helpful, maybe with a circular dial you can select like the compass or broad reach displays. Kinda weird when the boat flips completely around to head left.

Some kind of visual representation on the Boom Vang, Cunningham, Outhaul, Backstay, and Jib Lead would also be helpful, since it's really difficult to tell if they're actually doing anything. Maybe a transparent deformation magnified overlay showing the sail profile surface deformation extended away from the actual sail in extreme distortion. Otherwise the changes are so minute its challenging to perceive.

Otherwise, it's a cool demo, and seems to be (from a not especially experienced sailor) relatively realistic of the forces involved. Suggested extension would be showing the wind flowing off the sails and how the forces transition. Also, showing other boats, particularly something complicated like a Windjammer [1], Full-Rigged Ship [2] or Schooner [3] varieties.

Also cool, simply because so few submissions seem to deal with sailing, boats, and generally water transport principles. Lots of possible VC ideas related to sails and sailboats. MarineTraffic [4] is currently tracking 300,000 ships out on the world oceans, and surprisingly small number use any form of sail based propulsion. Route planning and "this much cargo to this area with this speed of delivery" estimation relative to money spent on oil and fuel for a normal ship would likely be possible. From this Quora answer (suggested by Google) a small container ship (something with 15000 kW, 2000-3000 TEU capacity, maybe a Feedermax ship) might use 2000 tons of fuel crossing the Pacific (maybe $500,000 to $1,000,000 of fuel) [5]. This paper [6] has a much more complicated breakdown if you're interested in those types of calculations.

Also quite a bit with drones, and automated sailing. [7][8] Even a decent amount with land propulsion [9] that's been explored occasionally and there's even a tiny amount with space probes and planetary rovers as concepts [10].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windjammer

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full-rigged_ship

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schooner

[4] https://www.marinetraffic.com

[5] https://www.quora.com/How-much-does-it-cost-to-fuel-a-cargo-...

[6] https://www.man-es.com/docs/default-source/document-sync/pro...

[7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unmanned_surface_vehicle

[8] https://www.saildrone.com/

[9] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_sailing

[10] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zephyr_(rover)

Re: Sail-Trim Simulator

#29
post #28
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not my demo! But I got inspired by it some time ago to build a simulator for monohulls which uses a physics based VPP to calculate the boat speed based on input controls like mainsheet, jib sheet, travelers, backstay and so on at https://www.sailrhythm.com/ It uses Catalina 36 Tall Rig as a base model for sailboat parameters and was calibrated to match ORC-published polars for it within 1-5% on both close, beam and b…

Little confused. So you're mostly giving credit to a demo that then inspired your own demo? Either way, both demos are fairly interesting, especially since there's so little exploration of sailing and the physics involved most of the time. The second sailrhythm demo seems rather high quality and a better representation of the physics involved. Not sure if you're planning to work on it further, yet putting the rudder…

SailRhythm is a bit WIP, so didn't want to share too early!

Thank you so much for the detailed feedback. I do have plans to implement wind flow visualization and have a way to visualize forces as well. Controls a bit tricky to do, but this is definitely something I've been pondering. As you said, at certain headings the changes sometimes are too small to perceive.

Re: Sail-Trim Simulator

#30
post #22
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not my demo! But I got inspired by it some time ago to build a simulator for monohulls which uses a physics based VPP to calculate the boat speed based on input controls like mainsheet, jib sheet, travelers, backstay and so on at https://www.sailrhythm.com/ It uses Catalina 36 Tall Rig as a base model for sailboat parameters and was calibrated to match ORC-published polars for it within 1-5% on both close, beam and b…

What are you using for your physics engine, or how did you go about designing your aero model? I've been poking about with wing aero for a toy flight simulator and there's not a lot written about the design process of modeling this stuff in near-real time.

I cheated a little bit and don't calculate the fluid dynamics in real time. Instead, I'm using force models from the excellent Aero-Hydrodynamics of Sailing book by Marchaj, which is sadly out of print. I then do iterative balancing of the drag force and combined drag/lift forces on sails until they converge.
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