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Encryption Is Not a Crime

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Re: Encryption Is Not a Crime

#21

Post by ivl »

loftsy wrote: post #15

Something is a crime if society determines that it should be so. Nothing more. Clearly the pressure on government to write these laws is coming from somewhere. You should engage with the arguments the other side makes.

The arguments are mostly that they dislike what can be accomplished via math. “The laws of mathematics are very commendable, but the only law that applies in Australia is the law of Australia” isn't exactly an 'argument' so much as an insistence.

The article does address the flaws in some of their arguments (encryption inconveniences law enforcement, think of the children) by pointing out that the average person and children are kept save from criminal elements by encryption.

Re: Encryption Is Not a Crime

#22

Post by kube-system »

9rx wrote: post #14

> It's not a crime to lock your home's door for protection, why would it be a crime to lock your digital door? A locked home's door is still trivially opened. You can pick the lock or even apply simple brute force, neither of which all that difficult, and open happily it will. Similarly, I don't suppose anyone would be concerned about you using rot13 encryption. If a home could be sealed to the same degree as strong…

Under what law? High security vaults are not legally controlled or prohibited in the US.

Re: Encryption Is Not a Crime

#23

Post by elric »

If we had trustworthy governments, or trustworthy police agencies, then maybe mandated backdoors wouldn't be all that bad. But if anything, recent events that clearly demonstrated that governments are not trustworthy, even if one is trustworthy today it couldn't become an evil regime tomorrow, and handing all your power over literally anything to such an organization does not seem wise.

Re: Encryption Is Not a Crime

#24

Post by pyfon »

9rx wrote: post #14

> It's not a crime to lock your home's door for protection, why would it be a crime to lock your digital door? A locked home's door is still trivially opened. You can pick the lock or even apply simple brute force, neither of which all that difficult, and open happily it will. Similarly, I don't suppose anyone would be concerned about you using rot13 encryption. If a home could be sealed to the same degree as strong…

So in general, shit security is legal, good security is a crime?

A warehouse with shutters and bulky padlocks, a night security guard and camera system is a crime? A bank vault is a crime? Safety deposit boxes?

Re: Encryption Is Not a Crime

#25

Post by loftsy »

ivl wrote: post #21
loftsy wrote: post #15

Something is a crime if society determines that it should be so. Nothing more. Clearly the pressure on government to write these laws is coming from somewhere. You should engage with the arguments the other side makes.

The arguments are mostly that they dislike what can be accomplished via math. “The laws of mathematics are very commendable, but the only law that applies in Australia is the law of Australia” isn't exactly an 'argument' so much as an insistence. The article does address the flaws in some of their arguments (encryption inconveniences law enforcement, think of the children) by pointing out that the average person and…

You can make gun fairly easily with what can be accomplished with a CNC machine. It is still illegal.

Re: Encryption Is Not a Crime

#26

Post by kube-system »

This is too many words to convince someone who already doesn’t believe this.

Put more simply: the modern internet doesn’t work without encryption, it is a fundamental part of the technology. Without it, anyone could log into any of your accounts, take your money, messages, photos, anything.

Re: Encryption Is Not a Crime

#27

Post by 9rx »

pyfon wrote: post #24
9rx wrote: post #14

> It's not a crime to lock your home's door for protection, why would it be a crime to lock your digital door? A locked home's door is still trivially opened. You can pick the lock or even apply simple brute force, neither of which all that difficult, and open happily it will. Similarly, I don't suppose anyone would be concerned about you using rot13 encryption. If a home could be sealed to the same degree as strong…

So in general, shit security is legal, good security is a crime? A warehouse with shutters and bulky padlocks, a night security guard and camera system is a crime? A bank vault is a crime? Safety deposit boxes?

> A warehouse with shutters and bulky padlocks, a night security guard and camera system is a crime?

No, why would it be? The security guard isn't going to wage war with the police/military when they want in. The guard will politely comply to any legitimate (and probably even illegitimate) request for access.

> A bank vault is a crime? Safety deposit boxes?

Banks are heavily regulated by the government. They especially aren't going to impede access if push comes to shove.

Laws aren't created on purely theoretical grounds. They are created only when a problem that needs to be solved is identified. The government has never had much trouble accessing physical spaces when they feel a need to. They have had trouble accessing encrypted data.

Re: Encryption Is Not a Crime

#28

Post by pyfon »

chupasaurus wrote: post #9
kubb wrote: post #4

There's an abstract argument template that I've noticed floating around. It goes like this: 1. There's a thing T in the world, and that thing has negative outcomes X, Y, Z, and positive outcomes A, B, C. 2. Some people believe that Y and Z are so bad, that they want to partly compromise C to diminish them. 3. However that will never work! And they'll definitely also take B if we let them mess with C. 4. Besides, C is…

My favorite version of it is "Let's ban air because terrorists breathe".

Guantanamo Bay was a thing though. Remember you are not banning all air.

And of course the definition of terrorist is will vary based on what politicians want. US recently sent some "Terrorists" to a gulag for example.

Re: Encryption Is Not a Crime

#29

Post by wulfstan »

Playing devil's advocate here...

What is wrong with:

* an expiring certificate

* issued by the device manufacturer or application creator

* to law enforcement

* once a competent court of law has given approval

* that would allow a specific user's content to be decrypted prior to expiry

There are a million gradations of privacy from "completely open" to "e2e encrypted". Governments (good ones!) are rightly complaining that criminals are using encryption to commit particularly awful crimes. Politicians are (mistakenly) asking for a master key - but what I feel we should as a community support is some fine-grained legal process that would allow limited access to user information if justified by a warrant.

Competent jurisdictions allow this for physical search and seizure. It's not unreasonable to ask for the same thing to apply to digital data.

Re: Encryption Is Not a Crime

#30

Post by ziddoap »

loftsy wrote: post #15

Something is a crime if society determines that it should be so. Nothing more. Clearly the pressure on government to write these laws is coming from somewhere. You should engage with the arguments the other side makes.

>You should engage with the arguments the other side makes.

The arguments are "Protect the children.", "Catch terrorists.", "Catch criminals.".

Those arguments have been engaged with for decades. They are purely emotional arguments. Anyone who still pushes those arguments forth is most likely doing so with ulterior motives and cannot be reasonably "engaged" with.

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