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Good News: Craigslist drops exclusive license to your posts

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Re: Good News: Craigslist drops exclusive license to your posts

#21
post #5

The disclosure at the bottom is rather informative: "Disclosure: Craig Newmark, founder of craigslist, is a member of EFF’s Advisory Board, and craigslist has donated to EFF."

I find this deeply ironic.

I'm intensely curious how much responsibility for the current debacle can be attributed to Craig and how much can be attributed to Jim Buckmaster

Re: Good News: Craigslist drops exclusive license to your posts

#22
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last I checked, robots.txt excludes all crawlers from at least several major classifications, including housing listings (/hhh): User-agent: * Disallow: /cgi-bin Disallow: /cgi-secure Disallow: /forums Disallow: /search Disallow: /res/ Disallow: /post Disallow: /email.friend Disallow: /eaf Disallow: /reply Disallow: /?flagCode Disallow: /ccc Disallow: /hhh Disallow: /sss Disallow: /bbb Disallow: /ggg Disallow: /jjj D…

Right...but not apartment listings (aap) http://newyork.craigslist.org/aap/ http://newyork.craigslist.org/roo/ http://newyork.craigslist.org/sub/ http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=...

Point. I mistakenly assumed /aaa covered all of housing.

Looks like the same principle applies to a number of other subcategories. So while overview indices aren't spiderable, subindices are.

Re: Good News: Craigslist drops exclusive license to your posts

#23
This is the first time I have seen EFF tap-dancing around issues that are important to its mission and I can't help but think that this arises from its relationship to Mr. Newmark.

Craigslist has recently engaged in a lawyer-driven campaign to ensure that no third party can use any of the data posted to its site:

1. Quite apart from the "exclusive license" language that it recently added (and has now dropped), it had recently amended its terms of use to make absolutely clear that no one has the right to use any data posted to its site, whether directly or indirectly, under any circumstances.

2. It sent cease-and-desist demands to various parties, including PadMapper, warning them not to use any such data but, as much as anything, making clear that it was revoking any implied license that the law might find to exist from CL's having allowed parties to scrape its data in the past (i.e., it was saying, in effect, no more loose community norms will apply but only the heavy hand of the law).

3. It also sued 3Tap for having set up a business that used CL data from the Google cache and offered it to third parties to enable them to have access to CL data without having to get it from the site directly. 3Tap contended that it could lawfully use the cached data without violating CL's terms of use or any copyright held by CL in any such data. CL strongly disagreed and set out its claims of infringement, etc. in a complaint filed in federal court just recently. The 3Tap business model may or may not have withstood this legal challenge but the salient fact here is that CL faced a lot of uncertainty on the legal issues involved, meaning that it might ultimately have lost on its claims and further meaning that 3Tap's business model would serve as a ready-made way for third parties to gain unfettered access to the CL data, at least until CL were able to obtain a preliminary injunction in the lawsuit or an ultimate victory on its claims. To do that, however, it would have needed to run the risk of potentially losing on its claims and thereby having helped create some pretty bad legal precedents for its business model.

4. That, to my thinking, is the only reason why CL would have taken the otherwise insane-looking step of changing its terms of use to demand that posters give it an exclusive license to all items posted to the CL site. That sort of license represents a bonehead decision from almost any angle one looks at it except one, and that is the legal angle of giving CL a strong position to claim that 3Tap can no longer use any of the data taken from the Google cache, whether or not 3Tap was deemed to have been bound by the CL terms of use. If CL had exclusive rights to enforce claims relating to the CL postings, then it could try to shut down 3Tap whether or not 3Tap was technically bound by the CL terms of use because it could do so from the copyright angle. In other words, the whole point of having tried to claim exclusive rights to the posts was to have a weapon against 3Tap to block it from having an avenue by which it could open up CL posts for use by potentially innumerable third parties via 3Tap - that is, to plug the final loophole in its legal system aimed at strict enforcement of the terms of use.

5. Any agreement, however, that amounts to a bare assignment of the right to sue on a copyright (with the assignor retaining effective ownership rights to everything else besides the right to sue) is of dubious enforceability, as copyright troll Righthaven found out to its dismay when it was upended by the combined efforts of Democratic Underground, Fenwick & West, and EFF - who convinced a judge to toss all its cases on the ground that such an assignment was ineffective and could not be used as a basis upon which to sue alleged infringers. Now the legal doctrines involved here can get complex and I have not had a chance to assess them carefully in the 3Tap/CL context. But I would wager that CL had lawyers telling it that, if the new terms amounted in practice only to a bare assignment of the right to sue on copyright (and what other reason is there for this?), there was still some potentially serious doubt on whether it would be able to prevail against 3Tap even though CL could now claim that it had the exclusive right to sue to enforce copyrights relating to CL posts.

6. This left CL with only one practical choice, which it took: remove its data from the Google cache or at least set it up so that third parties could not use such data. And that is precisely what it did, just a couple of days ago (see http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4351207 for an HN discussion on this event, with link to relevant article).

With the final step above, I assume that CL has effectively crippled the 3Tap business model. Therefore, it no longer needs to impose insane-looking licensing terms on persons wanting to post to its site and it has dropped those terms. It has simply found a more practical way to defeat the 3Tap model, rendering the oppressive licensing terms unnecessary.

The bottom line to what has happened here, in my view, is that CL is engaged in a heavy-handed, lawyer-driven campaign to guard its turf at all costs but doesn't really want to say this publicly for its own prudential reasons. This too is perhaps why EFF is being so diffident in this post, trying to celebrate the removal of obnoxious language from the CL terms of use without really giving convincing reasons for why that language found its way into the terms of use in the first place or why (short of CL being on a drunken toot) such language underwent a here-today-gone-tomorrow transformation for no apparent good reason over a very short period of time. I am only speculating here but it looks like EFF pulled a punch here.

Re: Good News: Craigslist drops exclusive license to your posts

#24
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...this does not legitimize anything in particular. It says it's OK for users to post ads on multiple sites, not that other sites can scrape CL's user content. This is akin to freelance contract work: if you're a news photographer, there's usually a clause saying that while you can own your photos, you may not sell them to your client's competitors (at least right away). So CL is saying to its users : Go ahead and co…

PadMapper was doing the cross-posting to PadList to slowly build its user base. I however did not realize that Craigslist frowned upon that until the change in the agreement.

PadMapper doesn't take CL listings and put it into Padlister. What's listed on Padlister was listed by users.

PadMapper puts CL listings and Padlister listings on the same map.

Re: Good News: Craigslist drops exclusive license to your posts

#25
Moreover, removing the exclusive license provision retains craigslist’s compatibility with common licensing schemes, like the Creative Commons ShareAlike license or the GNU Free Documentation License.

Hold on a sec here. Are they saying that Craigslist postings are now licensed under CC ShareALike (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/)? If so that's probably the most substantial point in this post.

Re: Good News: Craigslist drops exclusive license to your posts

#26
post #25

Moreover, removing the exclusive license provision retains craigslist’s compatibility with common licensing schemes, like the Creative Commons ShareAlike license or the GNU Free Documentation License. Hold on a sec here. Are they saying that Craigslist postings are now licensed under CC ShareALike ( http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/ )? If so that's probably the most substantial point in this post.

No, they seem to be saying that a Craigslist poster may, if they choose, license their own post under CC-BY-SA. Why anyone would bother to do that is beyond me.

And I'm not convinced it's true given that the terms of use, last updated in February, still say "You also expressly grant and assign to CL all rights and causes of action to prohibit and enforce against any unauthorized copying, performance, display, distribution, use or exploitation of, or creation of derivative works from, any content that you post (including but not limited to any unauthorized downloading, extraction, harvesting, collection or aggregation of content that you post)." http://www.craigslist.org/about/terms.of.use

Very disappointing post from EFF here. The meaningless Creative Commons bit you quoted is a fine illustration of what toothless nonsense the whole thing is. It seems they have a major conflict of interest with the legal bully's founder (Craig Newmark) sitting on their Advisory Board.

Re: Good News: Craigslist drops exclusive license to your posts

#27

Does this effectively mean Padmapper can use CL data once again?

CL has also removed themselves from search engines, so PadMapper can no longer use the google cache workaround. I don't think they can go back to scraping either, but I'm not certain of that aspect of it. This may be the real reason behind the change. Perhaps CL just doesn't need it any more.

Google still provides a screenshot of CL pages - I doubt it would take much work for an enterprising hacker or 3taps to hook an OCR library up to that.

Re: Good News: Craigslist drops exclusive license to your posts

#28
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CL has also removed themselves from search engines, so PadMapper can no longer use the google cache workaround. I don't think they can go back to scraping either, but I'm not certain of that aspect of it. This may be the real reason behind the change. Perhaps CL just doesn't need it any more.

Google still provides a screenshot of CL pages - I doubt it would take much work for an enterprising hacker or 3taps to hook an OCR library up to that.

But wouldn't that be insane on bandwidth?

Re: Good News: Craigslist drops exclusive license to your posts

#29
post #26
post #25

Moreover, removing the exclusive license provision retains craigslist’s compatibility with common licensing schemes, like the Creative Commons ShareAlike license or the GNU Free Documentation License. Hold on a sec here. Are they saying that Craigslist postings are now licensed under CC ShareALike ( http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/ )? If so that's probably the most substantial point in this post.

No, they seem to be saying that a Craigslist poster may, if they choose, license their own post under CC-BY-SA. Why anyone would bother to do that is beyond me. And I'm not convinced it's true given that the terms of use, last updated in February, still say "You also expressly grant and assign to CL all rights and causes of action to prohibit and enforce against any unauthorized copying, performance, display, distrib…

If this is indeed the case then that's absolutely ridiculous. I expected more from the EFF than chummy back-slapping and congratulatory praise for repealing a legally baffling policy.

Re: Good News: Craigslist drops exclusive license to your posts

#30

Does this effectively mean Padmapper can use CL data once again?

CL has also removed themselves from search engines, so PadMapper can no longer use the google cache workaround. I don't think they can go back to scraping either, but I'm not certain of that aspect of it. This may be the real reason behind the change. Perhaps CL just doesn't need it any more.

That sucks, searching is how I double-checked dubious craigslist posts. Select a couple phrases and search google. If identical posts pop up under various other cities on craigslist, then I knew for sure it was spam/fraud.
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