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The Democrats Are in Denial About 2024

nytimes.com

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Re: The Democrats Are in Denial About 2024

#21

Post by legitster »

mindcrime wrote: post #20
legitster wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 2. Drop the radical anti-gun stance They did drop the anti-gun stance and nobody cared or believed them. Kamala was on stage during the debate telling the crowd that she and her running mate were both proud gun owners. Meanwhile Trump is fairly anti-gun. This kind of illustrates the problem. Even if their party radically changes its stance on key issues, everyone is so locked into an ideological bubble that nobody…

They did drop the anti-gun stance and nobody cared or believed them. Kamala was on stage during the debate telling the crowd that she and her running mate were both proud gun owners. Meanwhile Trump is fairly anti-gun. You can't expect people's mindsets to change overnight though. Organizations develop a reputation of years, decades, or longer. It might take just as long to change that reputation. It takes consistenc…

This is true. But then again Trump was a staunch democrat who lived in a penthouse his whole life. Yet is able to just flip a switch on any topic and a whole voter base eats it up. So it's really hard to know what grounds to criticize them on when the opposition has just pure chaos magic on their side.

Re: The Democrats Are in Denial About 2024

#22

Post by AnimalMuppet »

mindcrime wrote: post #5

I'm very much not a Democrat or a Republican, and in many ways I don't give a shit what the Democrats do. But in the vein of "competition is good" and believing that a moderately heathy Democratic party is valuable as a counterweight to oppose the GOP, here's what I'd suggest the Democrats do: 1. Run candidates who are likeable and more importantly, likeable by most Americans. No arrogant "smarter than thou", preachy…

7. Actually care about the working class. They're your core constituency, after all. Stop thinking of them as "a basket of deplorables". Instead, listen to them. Find out what they care about, what they want, what they value, and the represent that.

Re: The Democrats Are in Denial About 2024

#23

Post by AnimalMuppet »

alabastervlog wrote: post #7
mindcrime wrote: post #5

I'm very much not a Democrat or a Republican, and in many ways I don't give a shit what the Democrats do. But in the vein of "competition is good" and believing that a moderately heathy Democratic party is valuable as a counterweight to oppose the GOP, here's what I'd suggest the Democrats do: 1. Run candidates who are likeable and more importantly, likeable by most Americans. No arrogant "smarter than thou", preachy…

> 2. Drop the radical anti-gun stance and embrace the 2nd Amendment as being just as important as every other part of the Bill of Rights. I agree, but also they mostly do and Republican voters still come out to the voting booth because they're sure—seriously, this is a real thing—that Biden's going to take their guns, and they mean literally, ban guns and try to round them all up. > 6. Go more in the direction of the…

I don't think the average voter is in favor of more taxation. The average voter is afraid that "tax the rich" will turn into taxing me.

Re: The Democrats Are in Denial About 2024

#24

Post by [deleted] »

OneDeuxTriSeiGo wrote: post #14
mindcrime wrote: post #5

I'm very much not a Democrat or a Republican, and in many ways I don't give a shit what the Democrats do. But in the vein of "competition is good" and believing that a moderately heathy Democratic party is valuable as a counterweight to oppose the GOP, here's what I'd suggest the Democrats do: 1. Run candidates who are likeable and more importantly, likeable by most Americans. No arrogant "smarter than thou", preachy…

> 3. Stop focusing so much on identity politics. Yes, sure, continue to stand for equality and inclusiveness. But don't make gender politics, trans-politics, race-politics, etc. your lynchpin issues. Democrats didn't run on identity politics. Republicans ran on claiming that Democrats run on identity politics. Democrats aren't the ones spending millions of dollars on campaign ads about trans people or people of color…

[deleted]

Re: The Democrats Are in Denial About 2024

#25

Post by silverquiet »

OneDeuxTriSeiGo wrote: post #14
mindcrime wrote: post #5

I'm very much not a Democrat or a Republican, and in many ways I don't give a shit what the Democrats do. But in the vein of "competition is good" and believing that a moderately heathy Democratic party is valuable as a counterweight to oppose the GOP, here's what I'd suggest the Democrats do: 1. Run candidates who are likeable and more importantly, likeable by most Americans. No arrogant "smarter than thou", preachy…

> 3. Stop focusing so much on identity politics. Yes, sure, continue to stand for equality and inclusiveness. But don't make gender politics, trans-politics, race-politics, etc. your lynchpin issues. Democrats didn't run on identity politics. Republicans ran on claiming that Democrats run on identity politics. Democrats aren't the ones spending millions of dollars on campaign ads about trans people or people of color…

Democrats didn't run on a radical anti-gun stance either - Harris talked about owning guns herself[0].

[0]https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c3vxvzg34qwo

Re: The Democrats Are in Denial About 2024

#26

Post by krapp »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #22
mindcrime wrote: post #5

I'm very much not a Democrat or a Republican, and in many ways I don't give a shit what the Democrats do. But in the vein of "competition is good" and believing that a moderately heathy Democratic party is valuable as a counterweight to oppose the GOP, here's what I'd suggest the Democrats do: 1. Run candidates who are likeable and more importantly, likeable by most Americans. No arrogant "smarter than thou", preachy…

7. Actually care about the working class. They're your core constituency, after all. Stop thinking of them as "a basket of deplorables". Instead, listen to them. Find out what they care about, what they want, what they value, and the represent that .

Are we still on the "basket of deplorables" thing?

You know that comment wasn't about the working class as a whole, it was about the bigots and neo-nazis that were taking over the Trumpist movement. And she was absolutely correct about it. Instead of uniting over a common manufactured trauma response because the scary lady said a mean thing the right should have cleaned its own house.

>Instead, listen to them. Find out what they care about, what they want, what they value, and the represent that.

So... become Republicans then?

Because they do, you know. The Democrats do all of that, but no one cares. No one even bothers to listen.

This is literally the only advice anyone ever seems to have. The left should abandon its principles, surrender to its enemies and give them everything they want, and then maybe apologize for the inconvenience.

The condescension is getting tiring, just send us to the camps already.

Re: The Democrats Are in Denial About 2024

#27

Post by alabastervlog »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #23
alabastervlog wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 2. Drop the radical anti-gun stance and embrace the 2nd Amendment as being just as important as every other part of the Bill of Rights. I agree, but also they mostly do and Republican voters still come out to the voting booth because they're sure—seriously, this is a real thing—that Biden's going to take their guns, and they mean literally, ban guns and try to round them all up. > 6. Go more in the direction of the…

I don't think the average voter is in favor of more taxation. The average voter is afraid that "tax the rich" will turn into taxing me .

I think there's more stomach for it than you do, but do agree some large subset of the population thinks that e.g. they ought to oppose the so-called "death tax" because it'll apply to them or anyone they know (it won't).

There's also the issue of a large proportion of the population not even understanding how progressive income tax rates work.

Re: The Democrats Are in Denial About 2024

#28

Post by AnimalMuppet »

krapp wrote: post #26
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

7. Actually care about the working class. They're your core constituency, after all. Stop thinking of them as "a basket of deplorables". Instead, listen to them. Find out what they care about, what they want, what they value, and the represent that .

Are we still on the "basket of deplorables" thing? You know that comment wasn't about the working class as a whole, it was about the bigots and neo-nazis that were taking over the Trumpist movement. And she was absolutely correct about it. Instead of uniting over a common manufactured trauma response because the scary lady said a mean thing the right should have cleaned its own house. >Instead, listen to them. Find o…

If "basket of deplorables" was a one-off, I might agree with you. But "clinging to guns and religion". There was another such comment this cycle, too, though I don't remember it. There has been a thread of contempt for the working class from Obama through Harris, and it keeps coming out of peoples' mouths.

If you claim to represent the working class, and your positions don't resonate with the working class, then you probably aren't representing them very well. If you claim to represent them but you hold most of them in contempt, then you almost certainly aren't going to represent them well.

You say they're all Republicans? Find out why. Find out why the Republicans are able to talk to those people - who are supposed to be your people - better than you can. Then figure out how to talk to them better than the Republicans can (hopefully with more truth and less nonsense).

I'm not asking you to let go of your principles. I'm asking you to live them. Your principles include caring about the working class, the lower class. Go live that out. Go be who you claim to be, who you've always supposed to have been.

If you think that's condescension, then I don't know what to tell you.

Re: The Democrats Are in Denial About 2024

#29

Post by watwut »

mindcrime wrote: post #5

I'm very much not a Democrat or a Republican, and in many ways I don't give a shit what the Democrats do. But in the vein of "competition is good" and believing that a moderately heathy Democratic party is valuable as a counterweight to oppose the GOP, here's what I'd suggest the Democrats do: 1. Run candidates who are likeable and more importantly, likeable by most Americans. No arrogant "smarter than thou", preachy…

I mean, Trump won twice. Down to earth nor ethical nor intelligent is NOT what wins the elections. And the primary focus on identity politics came from the right.

Also, gun control seems to be actually popular with Americans on average.

Re: The Democrats Are in Denial About 2024

#30

Post by watwut »

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #8
mindcrime wrote: post #5

I'm very much not a Democrat or a Republican, and in many ways I don't give a shit what the Democrats do. But in the vein of "competition is good" and believing that a moderately heathy Democratic party is valuable as a counterweight to oppose the GOP, here's what I'd suggest the Democrats do: 1. Run candidates who are likeable and more importantly, likeable by most Americans. No arrogant "smarter than thou", preachy…

Zero should be to make copious promises about fixing the economy, even if it's a stretch, to blue collar workers and the rest of the working classes and pinning the current economic woes on the other party, even if it's a stretch, as much as they can. Democrats talk a big game about being on the side of the working classes but that hasn't been true for 20+ years and voters know it. The polls show they know it too.

I mean, republicans are even worst for the working class. So, I would argue that what is show is that your actual record on economy does not matter, only big claims do.
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