Too, the whole puerile "ninja badass" nomenclature is a social signalling device that will turn off many excellent hackers. Stop it immediately.
Startups: Stop Trying To Hire Ninja-Rockstar Engineers
21–30 of 86 posts
Re: Startups: Stop Trying To Hire Ninja-Rockstar Engineers
#22Earlier quoted context omitted.
The best developers all just have jobs and aren't looking most of the time. Sounds like another good reason to focus on hiring recent grads, career changers, etc., to me. You just have to figure out a way to predict - better than chance - which ones will become great developers. Whether or not that's doable is, I suppose, an open question.
I guess the question is whether startups, who are usually in intense competition and working against the clock, have the time and energy spare to lead people through that process. I wouldn't have thought so. A good place for juniors to start would be in normal web shops, not high-pressure startups. Do you think Tesla Motors grabbed a few engineering grads and shop floor assistants, chucked them in a room and hoped th…
Do you think Tesla Motors grabbed a few engineering grads and shop floor assistants, chucked them in a room and hoped they'd "grow into" knowing how to make an electric car?
No, but that's a bit of a red-herring, as A. none of us (presumably) know anything about the actual composition of the team at Tesla in the early days, and B. nobody is suggesting to take a handful of grads, chuck them into a room, and let them sink or swim. What I'm suggesting is to utilize a mix of experienced people and fresh grad / inexperienced types, and do what most companies fail to do these days... actually provide the training, education, mentorship and support that help inexperienced people become top-flight people.
Re: Startups: Stop Trying To Hire Ninja-Rockstar Engineers
#23Earlier quoted context omitted.
I guess the question is whether startups, who are usually in intense competition and working against the clock, have the time and energy spare to lead people through that process. I wouldn't have thought so. A good place for juniors to start would be in normal web shops, not high-pressure startups. Do you think Tesla Motors grabbed a few engineering grads and shop floor assistants, chucked them in a room and hoped th…
Well, if you're talking about employee #1, then yeah, I think you need experience. But my point is to get into the mold of hiring people that can grow into roles, as early in the process as you can. I also tend to think that a good team should have a mix of people with different levels of skill and experience.
Well, I agree, but the article doesn't even have the word "mix" in it, it's "juniors good, seniors bad or at least probably unnecessary".
Re: Startups: Stop Trying To Hire Ninja-Rockstar Engineers
#24Then how do you expect YC companies to write a job ad on HN???
Re: Startups: Stop Trying To Hire Ninja-Rockstar Engineers
#25What he should be saying is don't hire pompous pretend-to-know-it-alls. That is something all of us can agree with. But if you've spent the better part of the last two decades learning how to be a good developer and have applied your skills across various technologies, projects, and industries, you deserve the six-figure salary. Why? Because ten mediocre singers cannot sing as well as Aretha Franklin. Hire nice, comp…
Have you seen the job postings here on HN? They all use that exact language - rock star or ninja or some other silly adjective. It sounds like they're specifically looking for pompous know-it-alls. I think what he says is exactly what he should be saying (and for the most part, exactly the same thing you're saying).
Re: Startups: Stop Trying To Hire Ninja-Rockstar Engineers
#26Earlier quoted context omitted.
The best developers all just have jobs and aren't looking most of the time. Sounds like another good reason to focus on hiring recent grads, career changers, etc., to me. You just have to figure out a way to predict - better than chance - which ones will become great developers. Whether or not that's doable is, I suppose, an open question.
I guess the question is whether startups, who are usually in intense competition and working against the clock, have the time and energy spare to lead people through that process. I wouldn't have thought so. A good place for juniors to start would be in normal web shops, not high-pressure startups. Do you think Tesla Motors grabbed a few engineering grads and shop floor assistants, chucked them in a room and hoped th…
>"I don't see why software startups are any different."
You don't see how a photo-sharing app is different than starting an electric car company?
That's a problem. I also think that's the point of the article: 99% of startups don't need rockstar developers. They aren't doing earth shattering engineering. Most startups need competence and nothing more. If they actually hired on that basis, it would help the eco-system.
Re: Startups: Stop Trying To Hire Ninja-Rockstar Engineers
#27The average starting salary for a senior Ruby developer has climbed to $94,000 ($107,000 in Silicon Valley). Compare that with the average salary for a junior Ruby developer, $70,000, ($80,000 in Silicone Valley).
These numbers strike me as wildly below current market rates in the Valley, based on my discussions with people in it trying to hire. I'm willing to be wrong on that.
Re: Startups: Stop Trying To Hire Ninja-Rockstar Engineers
#28True ninja-rockstar engineers are professionals that don't exhibit the traits described. The senior engineer described resembles more of the diva who is actually rarely that good, because he cares too much about his ego to question himself and progress.
Does "ninja-rockstar engineer" sound modest to you, like someone who doesn't care about their ego?
Re: Startups: Stop Trying To Hire Ninja-Rockstar Engineers
#29Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well, if you're talking about employee #1, then yeah, I think you need experience. But my point is to get into the mold of hiring people that can grow into roles, as early in the process as you can. I also tend to think that a good team should have a mix of people with different levels of skill and experience.
Well, I agree, but the article doesn't even have the word "mix" in it, it's "juniors good, seniors bad or at least probably unnecessary".
I took it as implicit that they were advocating having at least some senior level people, as one of their bullet points was to "provide mentoring." If there aren't at least some senior people, who would be doing the mentoring?
It's a fair point, though, that TFA doesn't really go into detail about the exact composition of a team that they are suggesting.
Re: Startups: Stop Trying To Hire Ninja-Rockstar Engineers
#30Are we really STILL talking about those terms? I don't mind those terms myself, because what I think everyone ACTUALLY means is they want a A++ player, someone who's deeply involved in the specific tech, a cut above your average senior dev cube dweller. These are the best sort of people for startups where your small size and large goals mean you can't afford any dead weight. Who cares what term you're using?