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Rickover's Lessons

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21–30 of 103 posts

Re: Rickover's Lessons

#21
post #2

We don't have time machines and so can't re-run the experiment. I've read biographies of Rickover and not all people who lived through this time are complementary. It's certainly true the strategic arms processes and nuclear submarine engineering benefited in a long term view. I just find myself asking if the US army recruiting tag line Be The Best You Can Be was really met, or if Rickover achieved what might be more…

The AUKUS deal is just Australia shovelling money at the US and getting four fifths of fuck all in return, but that's purely for political reasons.

Re: Rickover's Lessons

#22
post #5

Um. I don't know how many people on HN have served and heard of Rickover? But I'm pretty sure most people on HN could not function in a Rickover style management context. It gets things done, but it's not terribly polite about going about getting them done. To the article's credit, it does touch on this aspect of his management style. But engineers today are from the Millennial or GenZ generations. A lot of that just…

Having read Eric Berger's Reentry about SpaceX and having a few friends who work at Tesla, my impression is that those organizations are not too dissimilar. They are also populated largely by millenial and gen Z people because older workers can't/won't deal with the hours and other working conditions.

Furthermore I think most blue collar American workers, and many white collar workers, are used to the concept of sudden and arbitrary termination.

Re: Rickover's Lessons

#23
post #5

Um. I don't know how many people on HN have served and heard of Rickover? But I'm pretty sure most people on HN could not function in a Rickover style management context. It gets things done, but it's not terribly polite about going about getting them done. To the article's credit, it does touch on this aspect of his management style. But engineers today are from the Millennial or GenZ generations. A lot of that just…

I'm sorry this is getting down voted. The kayfabe surrounding Rickover and the Nuclear Navy is pretty impressive -- it's hard to find anything negative about it when you do an internet search.

For instance, you won't find any mention of the "Skipjack Skydiving Club"[1].

It would be interesting if they released statistics for the suicide rate within the Naval Nuclear Propulsion Program vs. the rest of the population. Anecdotally I would guess 30x.

[1]: "Skipjack", named after a Naval Vessel, is the name of the tallest dormitory at the Goose Creek Naval Weapon's Station Nuclear Power School. I'm sure you can do the math on where the club name came from.

Re: Rickover's Lessons

#24

President Carter served under Admiral Rickover. He was even sent to lead the cleanup of a reactor meltdown. https://www.usni.org/magazines/naval-history/2025/february/c...

Yeah Carter was a really sound guy. Smart and honest. Even after leaving the presidency he negotiated for peace all over the world. I think he doesn't deserve the bad rep he got.

If there's anyone who could have made America "great" it's him. Of course I'm not American so I know I'm butting in where I don't belong..

Re: Rickover's Lessons

#25
post #21
post #2

We don't have time machines and so can't re-run the experiment. I've read biographies of Rickover and not all people who lived through this time are complementary. It's certainly true the strategic arms processes and nuclear submarine engineering benefited in a long term view. I just find myself asking if the US army recruiting tag line Be The Best You Can Be was really met, or if Rickover achieved what might be more…

The AUKUS deal is just Australia shovelling money at the US and getting four fifths of fuck all in return, but that's purely for political reasons.

Yeah it's basically paying the US for protection.

I don't blame them though because they do have a whole country full of about 15 times as many space-constrained citizens next door (Indonesia)

Re: Rickover's Lessons

#26
post #2

We don't have time machines and so can't re-run the experiment. I've read biographies of Rickover and not all people who lived through this time are complementary. It's certainly true the strategic arms processes and nuclear submarine engineering benefited in a long term view. I just find myself asking if the US army recruiting tag line Be The Best You Can Be was really met, or if Rickover achieved what might be more…

> I've read biographies of Rickover and not all people who lived through this time are complementary.

History is written by those who remain in power and Rickover was a man who embodied speaking truth to power. His career was largely ended when some corporate powers he spoke truth to finally punished him for his opposition.

> but whatever his lessons are

Rickover was very forward about his lessons: https://govleaders.org/rickover.htm

Near the end of his career he mainly wanted to spend time promoting his own philosophies, however his anti "power" message was obscured via political spectacle and threatening corporate power ensured that those that wrote the history books made sure his accomplishments and philosophy faded into obscurity.

Re: Rickover's Lessons

#27

> without cost overruns That's downright un-American! I love hearing stories about him. One that I have heard, a couple of times, is that a salesgoblin went into his second-floor office at the Pentagon, with a sample of some electronic equipment. Rickover is said to have grabbed the device, walked over to his window, and dropped it to the ground beneath. He then said something along the lines of "If it still works, w…

That's kind of along the lines of something I heard that Steve Jobs did to the iPhone prototype. He threw it in the fish tank and said, all those bubbles are wasted space. Could be this is an urban legend though.

Re: Rickover's Lessons

#28
I'm a former USN Submariner, Nuclear Electronics Technician, and served from 2006 - 2016. Boy do I have some thoughts. Not all quotes here are from TFA, some are from various speeches he gave.

> Free discussion requires an atmosphere unembarrassed by any suggestion of authority or even respect.

This has always been an interesting idea to implement at tech companies. I've not yet been reprimanded for it, but I have definitely gotten raised eyebrows when the CEO or some other higher-up makes a statement, then pauses for replies. It seems like management isn't expecting anyone to do anything other than applaud.

> Responsibility is a unique concept. You may share it with others, but your portion is not diminished. You may delegate it, but it is still with you. If responsibility is rightfully yours, no evasion, or ignorance or passing the blame can shift the burden to someone else. Unless you can point your finger at the man who is responsible when something goes wrong, then you have never had anyone really responsible.

This is my number one source of frustration in tech, specifically in incident management / retrospectives. Companies have fully latched onto blamelessness in such a way that obliterates any responsibility. There is a difference between blaming a person for causing a problem, and holding a person accountable for their actions. The former usually also implies a disinterest in finding and fixing the root cause, instead looking for a scapegoat. That is flawed thinking that will not yield positive results. However, it's also patently absurd to pretend that when Bob has caused 3 of the last SEV0s, Bob isn't at least related to the problem. "We need more guardrails," they'll say, and implement automated checks to prevent the specific issue. I have no problem with guardrails, but what bothers me is when the guardrails become so onerous that it's difficult to do my job, and the bottom line is no one is holding Bob accountable. If you are careless with your work, no amount of guardrails will fix that; the problem is you.

> I am not satisfied with bringing an individual to a qualified level once, and then forgetting about him. Therefore, we continually reinforce theoretical and practical training with a continuing training program. This includes frequent practice in plant evolutions and casualty drills.

As much as any sailor hated drills, you can't deny that they work. I was jolted awake once by the sound of the collision alarm, followed by the announcement of flooding. While it turned out that it wasn't flooding, but merely a "controlled seawater leak," (someone messed up a rig for dive and left a valve open; that's an entirely different discussion), the fact remains that everyone knew where they needed to go, and what they needed to do.

Companies, especially / mostly ops-related departments, should practice scenarios. DR, loss of a K8s cluster, whatever. If you've automated everything, terrific; find something new that you haven't automated, and see if people know how to deal with it. This leads me to my next point: understanding fundamentals.

> I recall once several years ago an Admiral, whose conventionally powered ships were suffering serious engineering problems, asked me for a copy of one specific procedure I used to identify equipment which was not operating properly. He believed that would solve his problem, but it did not. That Admiral did not have the vaguest understanding of the problem or how to solve it, he was merely searching for a simple answer, a check off list, that he hoped would magically solve his problem.

and

> One of the elements needed in solving a complex technical problem is to have the individuals who make the decisions trained in the technology involved. A concept widely accepted in some circles is that all you need is to get a college degree in management and then, regardless of the technical subject, you can apply your management techniques to run any program...

Rickover understood that in order to operate things, you have to understand how they work. To this end, the training pipeline for my job began with basic algebra, in order to assure a baseline level of knowledge, and then proceeded through the structure of an atom, electrons, PN junctions, diodes, transistors, and logic circuits, before finally learning a great deal about the CPU (Motorola 68000 when I was a student; I was part of the curriculum overhaul years later to "modernize" it to the Intel 386) at the logic signal level. All this, to operate with massive layers of abstraction. But critically, that fundamental knowledge is there. We could, if absolutely necessary, troubleshoot a logic board (which are simply specialized computers) down to the component level, and desolder / resolder the new one.

Tech largely operated in this manner for decades by necessity. If you asked how to do something, you were told to RTFM. If you instead said, "I read section x.y.z but don't understand what it means," there was a much better chance of someone offering guidance. The onus was on you to understand enough of your current layer to apply it to the abstraction above. Instead, we now have vibe coding, and people pushing PRs having neither written nor tested any of the code. We have people copy/pasting error messages into Slack and asking what they mean, instead of taking the 10 seconds required to read it. We have people who have successfully memorized Leetcode, but who can't apply any of that knowledge to real-world problems.

Rickover was an asshole, but he had an extremely transparent and level requirement of all his employees: know your job inside and out. If you didn't, he would destroy you.

There _has_ to be a middle ground somewhere that modern companies could strive towards.

Re: Rickover's Lessons

#29
post #2

We don't have time machines and so can't re-run the experiment. I've read biographies of Rickover and not all people who lived through this time are complementary. It's certainly true the strategic arms processes and nuclear submarine engineering benefited in a long term view. I just find myself asking if the US army recruiting tag line Be The Best You Can Be was really met, or if Rickover achieved what might be more…

> I've read biographies of Rickover and not all people who lived through this time are complementary. History is written by those who remain in power and Rickover was a man who embodied speaking truth to power. His career was largely ended when some corporate powers he spoke truth to finally punished him for his opposition. > but whatever his lessons are Rickover was very forward about his lessons: https://govleaders…

Fantastic article on leadership - thanks for linking to it

Re: Rickover's Lessons

#30
post #2

We don't have time machines and so can't re-run the experiment. I've read biographies of Rickover and not all people who lived through this time are complementary. It's certainly true the strategic arms processes and nuclear submarine engineering benefited in a long term view. I just find myself asking if the US army recruiting tag line Be The Best You Can Be was really met, or if Rickover achieved what might be more…

He died in 1986, so everything in the Virginia program happened well after his death. His forced retirement in 1982 was largely because he made a lot of political enemies by making a stink about General Dynamic's flaws in workmanship on the Los Angeles class. His whole management style was to push for accountability and sweat the details. I think what you're country is seeing is general flaws in quality for basically…

Rickover's final testimony to congress in 1982 speaks about this:

Corporate Power A preoccupation with the so-called bottom line of profit and loss statements, coupled with a lust for expansion, is creating an environment in which fewer businessmen honor traditional values; where responsibility is increasingly disassociated from the the exercise of power; where skill in financial manipulation is valued more than actual knowledge and experience in the business; where attention and effort is directed mostly to short-term considerations, regardless of longer-range consequences.

Political and economic power is increasingly being concentrated among a few large corporations and their officers - power they can apply against society, government and individuals. Through their control of vast resources, these large corporations have become, in effect, another branch of government. They often exercise the power of government, but without the checks and balances inherent in our democratic system.

With their ability to dispense money, officials of large corporations may often exercise greater power to influence society than elected or appointed government officials - but without assuming any of the responsibilities and without being subject to public scrutiny. Woodrow Wilson warned that economic concentration could ''give to a few men a control over the economic life of the country which they might abuse to the undoing of millions of men.'' His stated purposes was: ''to square every process of our national life again with the standards we so proudly set up at the beginning and have always carried in our hearts.'' His comments are apropos today.

Summary: https://www.worldfuturefund.org/Articles/rickover.html Full testimony: https://www.jec.senate.gov/reports/97th%20Congress/Economics...

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