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The cultural divide between mathematics and AI

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Re: The cultural divide between mathematics and AI

#21

Post by nicf »

lordleft wrote: post #19
nicf wrote: post #8

I'm a former research mathematician who worked for a little while in AI research, and this article matched up very well with my own experience with this particular cultural divide. Since I've spent a lot more time in the math world than the AI world, it's very natural for me to see this divide from the mathematicians' perspective, and I definitely agree that a lot of the people I've talked to on the other side of thi…

I'm not a mathematician so please feel free to correct me...but wouldn't there still be an opportunity for humans to try to understand why a proof solved by a machine is true? Or are you afraid that the culture of mathematics will shift towards being impatient about this sorts of questions?

Well, it depends on exactly what future you were imagining. In a world where the model just spits out a totally impenetrable but formally verifiable Lean proof, then yes, absolutely, there's a lot for human mathematicians to do. But I don't see any particular reason things would have to stop there: why couldn't some model also spit out nice, beautiful explanations of why the result is true? We're certainly not there yet, but if we do get there, human mathematicians might not really be producing much of anything. What reason would there be to keep employing them all?

Like I said, I don't have any idea what's going to happen. The thing that makes me sad about these conversations is that the people I talk to sometimes don't seem to have any appreciation for the thing they say they want to dismantle. It might even be better for humanity on the whole to arrive in this future; I'm not arguing that one way or the other! Just that I think there's a chance it would involve losing something I really love, and that makes me sad.

Re: The cultural divide between mathematics and AI

#22

Post by xg15 »

> One question generated particular concern: what would happen if an AI system produced a proof of a major conjecture like the Riemann Hypothesis, but the proof was too complex for humans to understand? Would such a result be satisfying? Would it advance mathematical understanding? The consensus seemed to be that while such a proof might technically resolve the conjecture, it would fail to deliver the deeper understanding that mathematicians truly seek.

I think this is an interesting question. In a hypothetical SciFi world where we somehow provably know that AI is infallible and the results are always correct, you could imagine mathematicians grudgingly accepting some conjecture as "proven by AI" even without understanding the why.

But for real-world AI, we know it can produce hallucinations and its reasoning chains can have massive logical errors. So if it came up with a proof that no one understands, how would we even be able to verify that the proof is indeed correct and not just gibberish?

Or more generally, how do you verify a proof that you don't understand?

Re: The cultural divide between mathematics and AI

#23

Post by anon291 »

woah wrote: post #20

> Perhaps most telling was the sadness expressed by several mathematicians regarding the increasing secrecy in AI research. Mathematics has long prided itself on openness and transparency, with results freely shared and discussed. The closing off of research at major AI labs—and the inability of collaborating mathematicians to discuss their work—represents a significant cultural clash with mathematical traditions. Th…

[flagged]

Re: The cultural divide between mathematics and AI

#24

Post by bluefirebrand »

deadbabe wrote: post #7
esafak wrote: post #5

AI is young, and at the center of the industry spotlight, so it attracts a lot of people who are not in it to understand anything. It's like when the whole world got on the Internet, and the culture suddenly shifted. It's a good thing; you just have to dress up your work in the right language, and you can get funding, like when Richard Bellman coined the term "dynamic programming" to make it palatable to the Secretar…

AI has been around since at least the 1970s.

Not in any way that is relevant to the conversation about AI that has exploded this decade

Re: The cultural divide between mathematics and AI

#25

Post by bluefirebrand »

Henchman21 wrote: post #15
nicf wrote: post #8

I'm a former research mathematician who worked for a little while in AI research, and this article matched up very well with my own experience with this particular cultural divide. Since I've spent a lot more time in the math world than the AI world, it's very natural for me to see this divide from the mathematicians' perspective, and I definitely agree that a lot of the people I've talked to on the other side of thi…

I’ve worked in tech my entire adult life and boy do I feel this deep in my soul. I have slowly withdrawn from the higher-level tech designs and decision making. I usually disagree with all of it. Useless pursuits made only for resume fodder. Tech decisions made based on the bonus the CTO gets from the vendors (Superbowl tickets anyone?) not based on the suitability of the tech. But absolutely worst of all is the arro…

> Move fast and break things!! Even when its the society you live in.

This is the part I don't get honestly

Are people just very shortsighted and don't see how these changes are potentially going to cause upheaval?

Do they think the upheaval is simply going to be worth it?

Do they think they will simply be wealthy enough that it won't affect them much, they will be insulated from it?

Do they just never think about consequences at all?

I am trying not to be extremely negative about all of this, but the speed of which things are moving makes me think we'll hit the cliff before even realizing it is in front of us

That's the part I find unnerving

Re: The cultural divide between mathematics and AI

#26

Post by sarchertech »

throw8404948k wrote: post #16

> This quest for deep understanding also explains a common experience for mathematics graduate students: asking an advisor a question, only to be told, "Read these books and come back in a few months." With AI advisor I do not have this problem. It explains parts I need, in a way I understand. If I study some complicated topic, AI shortens it from months to days. I was somehow mathematically gifted when younger, sadl…

I think you’re missing the point of what the advisor is saying.

Re: The cultural divide between mathematics and AI

#27

Post by feoren »

bluefirebrand wrote: post #25
Henchman21 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve worked in tech my entire adult life and boy do I feel this deep in my soul. I have slowly withdrawn from the higher-level tech designs and decision making. I usually disagree with all of it. Useless pursuits made only for resume fodder. Tech decisions made based on the bonus the CTO gets from the vendors (Superbowl tickets anyone?) not based on the suitability of the tech. But absolutely worst of all is the arro…

> Move fast and break things!! Even when its the society you live in. This is the part I don't get honestly Are people just very shortsighted and don't see how these changes are potentially going to cause upheaval? Do they think the upheaval is simply going to be worth it? Do they think they will simply be wealthy enough that it won't affect them much, they will be insulated from it? Do they just never think about co…

> Do they think they will simply be wealthy enough that it won't affect them much, they will be insulated from it?

Yes, partly that. Mostly they only care about their rank. Many people would burn down the country if it meant they could be king of the ashes. Even purely self-interested people should welcome a better society for all, because a rising tide lifts all boats. But not only are they selfish, they're also very stupid, at least in this aspect. They can't see the world as anything but zero sum, and themselves as either winning or losing, so they must win at all costs. And those costs are huge.

Re: The cultural divide between mathematics and AI

#28

Post by feoren »

anon291 wrote: post #23
woah wrote: post #20

> Perhaps most telling was the sadness expressed by several mathematicians regarding the increasing secrecy in AI research. Mathematics has long prided itself on openness and transparency, with results freely shared and discussed. The closing off of research at major AI labs—and the inability of collaborating mathematicians to discuss their work—represents a significant cultural clash with mathematical traditions. Th…

[flagged]

I get the feeling you've never really talked to many academics.

Re: The cultural divide between mathematics and AI

#29

Post by mvieira38 »

lordleft wrote: post #19
nicf wrote: post #8

I'm a former research mathematician who worked for a little while in AI research, and this article matched up very well with my own experience with this particular cultural divide. Since I've spent a lot more time in the math world than the AI world, it's very natural for me to see this divide from the mathematicians' perspective, and I definitely agree that a lot of the people I've talked to on the other side of thi…

I'm not a mathematician so please feel free to correct me...but wouldn't there still be an opportunity for humans to try to understand why a proof solved by a machine is true? Or are you afraid that the culture of mathematics will shift towards being impatient about this sorts of questions?

That is kind of hard to do. Human reasoning and computer reasoning is very different, enough so that we can't really grasp it. Take chess, for example. Humans tend to reason in terms of positions and tactics, but computers just brute force it (I'm ignoring stuff like Alpha Zero because computers were way better than us even before that). There isn't much to learn there, so GMs just memorize the computer moves for so and so situation and then go back to their past heuristics after n moves

Re: The cultural divide between mathematics and AI

#30

Post by Henchman21 »

bluefirebrand wrote: post #25
Henchman21 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve worked in tech my entire adult life and boy do I feel this deep in my soul. I have slowly withdrawn from the higher-level tech designs and decision making. I usually disagree with all of it. Useless pursuits made only for resume fodder. Tech decisions made based on the bonus the CTO gets from the vendors (Superbowl tickets anyone?) not based on the suitability of the tech. But absolutely worst of all is the arro…

> Move fast and break things!! Even when its the society you live in. This is the part I don't get honestly Are people just very shortsighted and don't see how these changes are potentially going to cause upheaval? Do they think the upheaval is simply going to be worth it? Do they think they will simply be wealthy enough that it won't affect them much, they will be insulated from it? Do they just never think about co…

> Do they just never think about consequences at all?

Yes, I think this is it. Frequently using social media and being “online” leads to less critical thought, less thinking overall, smaller window that you allow yourself to think in, thoughts that are merely sound bites not fully fleshed out thoughts, and so on. Ones thoughts can easily become a milieu of memes and falsehoods. A person whose mind is in the state will do whatever anyone suggests for that next dopamine hit!

I am guilty of it all myself which is how I can make this claim. I too fear for humanity’s future.

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