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Suspicious Tesla Sales Surge Triggers Canadian Government Investigation

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Re: Suspicious Tesla Sales Surge Triggers Canadian Government Investigation

#21

Post by anonfordays »

Terr_ wrote: post #8

[Recycled comment from another submission] Very suspicious. (Dare I say "Concerning"? :p) From another source with a bit more context for those numbers: > Tesla’s Canadian stores are company-owned and directly controlled by the company. [...] Four Tesla stores in Canada each sold an average of 30 cars per hour, amounting to 120 cars per hour across all four locations—essentially one car every minute, 24 hours a day……

Tesla does not sell vehicles at their "dealerships." Tesla is 100% online orders, you are not able to place an order at their showrooms with the staff. The showrooms double as delivery centers for entire regions. 30 cars per hour across a 100 mile radius as the EV subsidy is expiring is not impossible. Tesla does not collect the subsidies, the owners do.

This is only "suspicious" because it's fake news.

Re: Suspicious Tesla Sales Surge Triggers Canadian Government Investigation

#22

Post by anonfordays »

Terr_ wrote: post #20
iJohnDoe wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did they just funnel and move cars through the Canada based dealerships that were for sales in other parts of the world? Does Tesla normally sell that many cars in three days?

Even then it would likely still be some variety of fraud, since the rebates are limited in scope to "Canadian individuals and businesses", and the business-limit is 10 no matter how many separate ones on paper an owner tries to craft. https://tc.canada.ca/en/road-transportation/innovative-techn...

This is not fraud. Tesla does not sell vehicles at their "dealerships." Tesla is 100% online orders, you are not able to place an order at their showrooms with the staff. The showrooms double as delivery centers for entire regions. 30 cars per hour across a 100 mile radius as the EV subsidy is expiring is not thst hard to do. Tesla does not collect the subsidies, the owners do.

This is only "suspicious" because it's fake news.

Re: Suspicious Tesla Sales Surge Triggers Canadian Government Investigation

#23

Post by anonfordays »

throwaway5752 wrote: post #16
HarHarVeryFunny wrote: post #10

> One Tesla location in Toronto reported more than 1,200 sales on January 11 alone, accounting for $4 million in [Canadian government] rebates. Sounds like Musk being a dick - sticking it to Canada to please/amuse his boss.

This is a very internet take. Being a dick is personal behavior. Falsifying sales records to receive rebates is criminal fraud, regardless of how nicely you do so.

This is not fraud. Tesla does not sell vehicles at their "dealerships." Tesla is 100% online orders, you are not able to place an order at their showrooms with the staff. The showrooms double as delivery centers for entire regions. 30 cars per hour across a 100 mile radius as the EV subsidy is expiring is not thst hard to do. Tesla does not collect the subsidies, the owners do.

The "fraud" narrative being pushed about this is because this is fake news.

Re: Suspicious Tesla Sales Surge Triggers Canadian Government Investigation

#24

Post by Terr_ »

anonfordays wrote: post #21
Terr_ wrote: post #8

[Recycled comment from another submission] Very suspicious. (Dare I say "Concerning"? :p) From another source with a bit more context for those numbers: > Tesla’s Canadian stores are company-owned and directly controlled by the company. [...] Four Tesla stores in Canada each sold an average of 30 cars per hour, amounting to 120 cars per hour across all four locations—essentially one car every minute, 24 hours a day……

Tesla does not sell vehicles at their "dealerships." Tesla is 100% online orders, you are not able to place an order at their showrooms with the staff. The showrooms double as delivery centers for entire regions. 30 cars per hour across a 100 mile radius as the EV subsidy is expiring is not impossible. Tesla does not collect the subsidies, the owners do. This is only "suspicious" because it's fake news.

Dude, "LOL online orders exist" is not the slam-dunk you think it is here.

First, that single weekend's 8.6k sales (if the timestamps are to be believed) are than Tesla's Canada sales for the entire prior month (Dec 2024) as well as exceeding the total for any month in 2024.

Second, even a mob of frenzied Canadians car-buyers would probably fall more-evenly across different sellers, and across more days of the month, rather than being so unusually-concentrated.

Finally, remember that the incentive program was already slated to end within another month or two, not a year later or whatever. This places limits on how big we can expect the crowd of procrastinating car-buyers to be, especially since for most people cars are not impulse-buys.

Re: Suspicious Tesla Sales Surge Triggers Canadian Government Investigation

#25

Post by somerandomqaguy »

anonfordays wrote: post #21
Terr_ wrote: post #8

[Recycled comment from another submission] Very suspicious. (Dare I say "Concerning"? :p) From another source with a bit more context for those numbers: > Tesla’s Canadian stores are company-owned and directly controlled by the company. [...] Four Tesla stores in Canada each sold an average of 30 cars per hour, amounting to 120 cars per hour across all four locations—essentially one car every minute, 24 hours a day……

Tesla does not sell vehicles at their "dealerships." Tesla is 100% online orders, you are not able to place an order at their showrooms with the staff. The showrooms double as delivery centers for entire regions. 30 cars per hour across a 100 mile radius as the EV subsidy is expiring is not impossible. Tesla does not collect the subsidies, the owners do. This is only "suspicious" because it's fake news.

The iZEV rebate is paid to the the point of sale who in turn is supposed to knock that price down for the owner. So it is a 'dealer' in that Tesla itself is the dealership.

So yes it is suspicious. Especially considering that the Model Y starts much more expensive then it's competitors like the Mach E, the Ioniq 5, the EV6, the Equinox/Blazer, and Prologue. The only main advantage Tesla has is the Supercharger network and better software experience.

Whether anything comes of it or not is an entirely different matter because there are ways of doing this that do not violate the letter of the law.

Re: Suspicious Tesla Sales Surge Triggers Canadian Government Investigation

#26

Post by Terr_ »

anonfordays wrote: post #22
Terr_ wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even then it would likely still be some variety of fraud, since the rebates are limited in scope to "Canadian individuals and businesses", and the business-limit is 10 no matter how many separate ones on paper an owner tries to craft. https://tc.canada.ca/en/road-transportation/innovative-techn...

This is not fraud. Tesla does not sell vehicles at their "dealerships." Tesla is 100% online orders, you are not able to place an order at their showrooms with the staff. The showrooms double as delivery centers for entire regions. 30 cars per hour across a 100 mile radius as the EV subsidy is expiring is not thst hard to do. Tesla does not collect the subsidies, the owners do. This is only "suspicious" because it's…

> > > Did they just funnel and move cars through the Canada based dealerships that were for sales in other parts of the world?

> > Even then it would likely still be some variety of fraud

> This is not fraud.

The scenario they brought up of misrepresenting non-Canadian buyers as Canadians in order to take rebates from the Canadian government would absolutely be fraud.

As for your "online orders" thing, I've replied in another thread.

Re: Suspicious Tesla Sales Surge Triggers Canadian Government Investigation

#27

Post by anonfordays »

somerandomqaguy wrote: post #25
anonfordays wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla does not sell vehicles at their "dealerships." Tesla is 100% online orders, you are not able to place an order at their showrooms with the staff. The showrooms double as delivery centers for entire regions. 30 cars per hour across a 100 mile radius as the EV subsidy is expiring is not impossible. Tesla does not collect the subsidies, the owners do. This is only "suspicious" because it's fake news.

The iZEV rebate is paid to the the point of sale who in turn is supposed to knock that price down for the owner. So it is a 'dealer' in that Tesla itself is the dealership. So yes it is suspicious. Especially considering that the Model Y starts much more expensive then it's competitors like the Mach E, the Ioniq 5, the EV6, the Equinox/Blazer, and Prologue. The only main advantage Tesla has is the Supercharger networ…

>The iZEV rebate is paid to the the point of sale who in turn is supposed to knock that price down for the owner. So it is a 'dealer' in that Tesla itself is the dealership.

No, the rebate is paid at point of sale to the purchaser of said vehicle, not to the dealership, and not to Tesla.

>So yes it is suspicious.

So it is not suspicious.

>Especially considering that the Model Y starts much more expensive then it's competitors like the Mach E, the Ioniq 5, the EV6, the Equinox/Blazer, and Prologue.

It's not that much more in price, and it's a much better vehicle than anything Ford or Chevrolet makes.

>Whether anything comes of it or not is an entirely different matter because there are ways of doing this that do not violate the letter of the law.

Nothing will come up because nothing happened. Consumers went on a buying spree because the rebate was quickly coming to a close.

Re: Suspicious Tesla Sales Surge Triggers Canadian Government Investigation

#28

Post by throwaway5752 »

anonfordays wrote: post #23
throwaway5752 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a very internet take. Being a dick is personal behavior. Falsifying sales records to receive rebates is criminal fraud, regardless of how nicely you do so.

This is not fraud. Tesla does not sell vehicles at their "dealerships." Tesla is 100% online orders, you are not able to place an order at their showrooms with the staff. The showrooms double as delivery centers for entire regions. 30 cars per hour across a 100 mile radius as the EV subsidy is expiring is not thst hard to do. Tesla does not collect the subsidies, the owners do. The "fraud" narrative being pushed abou…

By all means send me the regulations for rebate and some concrete information, I'm open to being convinced otherwise by facts.

Re: Suspicious Tesla Sales Surge Triggers Canadian Government Investigation

#29

Post by anonfordays »

throwaway5752 wrote: post #28
anonfordays wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not fraud. Tesla does not sell vehicles at their "dealerships." Tesla is 100% online orders, you are not able to place an order at their showrooms with the staff. The showrooms double as delivery centers for entire regions. 30 cars per hour across a 100 mile radius as the EV subsidy is expiring is not thst hard to do. Tesla does not collect the subsidies, the owners do. The "fraud" narrative being pushed abou…

By all means send me the regulations for rebate and some concrete information, I'm open to being convinced otherwise by facts.

YOU make the claim, YOU bring sources. Your claim (or the claim you support):

"Falsifying sales records to receive rebates is criminal fraud, regardless of how nicely you do so."

You don't have any sources to back it up, so it can be dismissed outright.

Re: Suspicious Tesla Sales Surge Triggers Canadian Government Investigation

#30

Post by somerandomqaguy »

anonfordays wrote: post #27
somerandomqaguy wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The iZEV rebate is paid to the the point of sale who in turn is supposed to knock that price down for the owner. So it is a 'dealer' in that Tesla itself is the dealership. So yes it is suspicious. Especially considering that the Model Y starts much more expensive then it's competitors like the Mach E, the Ioniq 5, the EV6, the Equinox/Blazer, and Prologue. The only main advantage Tesla has is the Supercharger networ…

>The iZEV rebate is paid to the the point of sale who in turn is supposed to knock that price down for the owner. So it is a 'dealer' in that Tesla itself is the dealership. No, the rebate is paid at point of sale to the purchaser of said vehicle, not to the dealership, and not to Tesla. >So yes it is suspicious. So it is not suspicious. >Especially considering that the Model Y starts much more expensive then it's co…

>No, the rebate is paid at point of sale to the purchaser of said vehicle, not to the dealership, and not to Tesla.

https://tc.canada.ca/en/road-transportation/innovative-techn...

========================================= To get reimbursed:

Log into the ZEV application, select the selling dealership, and go to the “I want to view all iZEV requests submitted for this dealership/authorized seller.” Then search the Service Request ID # of the Eligibility Assessed request and upload the sales/lease agreement and the Incentive Received Form. Make sure that all documents are complete and include all signatures and information required.

[...]

iZEV Online Application: request status

[...]

Rebate Sent

The dealership has been sent a payment, and you'll be notified by email. This email will include the payment amount, the service request ID and the Vehicle Identification Number. Some banks may take up to 5 business days to deposit the funds into your account.

========================================

Straight from the horses mouth; the dealership is reimbursed. The buyer pays a lower out of pocket price. It makes no sense to have the reimbursement go to the owners directly as part of the point of sale. Transport Canada would need have to have electronic payment systems setup for every EV buyer along with all the privacy and financial handling headaches that such a government system entails.

>It's not that much more in price, and it's a much better vehicle than anything Ford or Chevrolet makes.

The Mach E starts at $58,000. The Ioniq 5 at $55,000. The EV6 at $56,000, the Aryia at $52,000, and the ID4 at $44,000.

The Model Y start at $65,000. It's a significant chunk of change even for middle class Canadians.

>Nothing will come up because nothing happened. Consumers went on a buying spree because the rebate was quickly coming to a close.

Maybe, maybe not. There's also ways that I could see this legitimately happening. But at the end of the day it's still highly unusual behaviour that bears further scrutiny. Also known as the being suspicious.

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