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Zelensky says he is ready to negotiate peace

cnn.com

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Re: Zelensky says he is ready to negotiate peace

#21

Post by blackeyeblitzar »

throwaway48476 wrote: post #19
blackeyeblitzar wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think anyone can be honest about a live negotiation in public. It’s all going to happen behind closed doors. But realistically, what will happen is that Russia will just formally gain the territories it took over in 2014 after the coup in Ukraine that overthrew Yanukovych. This is not a bad outcome for stability in the region, to be honest - those areas have historically been more Russia-aligned and voted for…

Yanukovych won by promising to sign the EU accession treaty. It wasn't until Putin blackmailed him and the Europeans wouldn't backfill that he was forced to go back on it leading to the maidan protests.

That may be true but the democratic process was not followed in the end. If you look at the previous election, regions from Luhansk to Crimea were strong supporters of Yanukovych. Those people basically lost their vote as a result of the Maidan revolution / protest / coup / whatever. Should they be required to remain in Ukraine, assuming they don’t want to?

I’m interested in learning more about what you know regarding the Putin blackbail and Europe backfill though - got any sources?

Re: Zelensky says he is ready to negotiate peace

#22

Post by mrkeen »

billy99k wrote: post #18
JohnFen wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a bit disingenuous. Ukraine was never against a peace deal, and its position hasn't changed. What's changed is that the US is trying to sell them out to Russia, and that's something that Ukraine isn't going to, and shouldn't, accept. What would the US do if it were in Ukraine's position? It certainly wouldn't go along with some other power telling it that it has to lose. > This is what strong American leaders…

"I see no strong American leadership here. I see a weak president throwing a hissy fit because Zelensky wasn't willing to sufficiently kneel down and kiss Trump's ass. Zelensky is the strong leader here." Are you serious? Powerful people know their place and Zelensky definitely didn't know his. Trump only threw a 'hissy fit' as you claim, because Zelensky started making demands, when he should be thanking the US for…

Some light reading on the 'thankful' angle. Not that it matters one bit.

https://edition.cnn.com/2025/02/28/politics/volodymyr-zelens...

Re: Zelensky says he is ready to negotiate peace

#23

Post by JohnFen »

billy99k wrote: post #18
JohnFen wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a bit disingenuous. Ukraine was never against a peace deal, and its position hasn't changed. What's changed is that the US is trying to sell them out to Russia, and that's something that Ukraine isn't going to, and shouldn't, accept. What would the US do if it were in Ukraine's position? It certainly wouldn't go along with some other power telling it that it has to lose. > This is what strong American leaders…

"I see no strong American leadership here. I see a weak president throwing a hissy fit because Zelensky wasn't willing to sufficiently kneel down and kiss Trump's ass. Zelensky is the strong leader here." Are you serious? Powerful people know their place and Zelensky definitely didn't know his. Trump only threw a 'hissy fit' as you claim, because Zelensky started making demands, when he should be thanking the US for…

> Zelensky started making demands

Yes, entirely reasonable and necessary ones (a security guarantee). He only did it in public because Trump had just publicly made false statements that were intended to undercut those. That's what a strong leader does: stands up for his nation when necessary.

> he should be thanking the US for the billions of dollars we already poured into his country.

Zelensky has been thanking the US continuously all along. There's no shortage of expressions of gratitude here. What got Trump angry was that Zelensky wasn't grovelling to Trump personally. That has nothing to do with the US and everything to do with Trump's weakness and lack of character. Trump is not the US.

> you've accused Trump of wanting to get rid of elections for years.

I have done no such thing.

> They wouldn't bite the hand that feeds them.

Zelensky did no such thing, but I could absolutely see Trump doing so.

Re: Zelensky says he is ready to negotiate peace

#25

Post by throwaway48476 »

blackeyeblitzar wrote: post #21
throwaway48476 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yanukovych won by promising to sign the EU accession treaty. It wasn't until Putin blackmailed him and the Europeans wouldn't backfill that he was forced to go back on it leading to the maidan protests.

That may be true but the democratic process was not followed in the end. If you look at the previous election, regions from Luhansk to Crimea were strong supporters of Yanukovych. Those people basically lost their vote as a result of the Maidan revolution / protest / coup / whatever. Should they be required to remain in Ukraine, assuming they don’t want to? I’m interested in learning more about what you know regardin…

They "lost their vote"? Yanukovych fled, that was his choice. It also ignores the donbas voters who voted for him because of the EU treaty. And they held elections after in which donbas votes counted the same as everyone else. Donbas also voted for Ukraine independence from the Soviet union in the 90s.

Putin demanded yanukovych cancel the EU treaty and instead sign a treaty with Russia. He threatened to stop selling Ukraine gas below market rate. This is the same way he controls lukashenko. Yanukovych went to the Europeans and begged them to make up what Ukraine would lose paying market rate but they refused. So he was forced to cancel the EU treaty which he didn't want to do because he knew what would happen. Rock and a hard place. He was corrupt but not stupid.

>Yanukovych stood for economic modernisation, greater economic ties with the EU, and military non-alignment.

>In November 2013, Yanukovych suddenly withdrew from signing an association agreement with the EU, amidst economic pressure from Russia.

From the Wikipedia.

Re: Zelensky says he is ready to negotiate peace

#26

Post by blackeyeblitzar »

throwaway48476 wrote: post #25
blackeyeblitzar wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be true but the democratic process was not followed in the end. If you look at the previous election, regions from Luhansk to Crimea were strong supporters of Yanukovych. Those people basically lost their vote as a result of the Maidan revolution / protest / coup / whatever. Should they be required to remain in Ukraine, assuming they don’t want to? I’m interested in learning more about what you know regardin…

They "lost their vote"? Yanukovych fled, that was his choice. It also ignores the donbas voters who voted for him because of the EU treaty. And they held elections after in which donbas votes counted the same as everyone else. Donbas also voted for Ukraine independence from the Soviet union in the 90s. Putin demanded yanukovych cancel the EU treaty and instead sign a treaty with Russia. He threatened to stop selling…

Didn’t he flee because he was at risk of harm? That still doesn’t remove him from the presidency. There’s a process for that which wasn’t followed - the vote isn’t a substitute.

Re: Zelensky says he is ready to negotiate peace

#27

Post by k310 »

I believe that the mineral deal had a security guarantee from the U.S. "at some future date" like the "infrastructure plan" still on hold for 8 years, meaning empty. Look at all the "cancellations" of Biden programs in one month. One side should not pay in advance while the other is free to renege.

Perhaps European leaders filled that vacuum.

Or perhaps it's a recalibration given a two-front war.

Re: Zelensky says he is ready to negotiate peace

#28

Post by throwaway48476 »

blackeyeblitzar wrote: post #26
throwaway48476 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They "lost their vote"? Yanukovych fled, that was his choice. It also ignores the donbas voters who voted for him because of the EU treaty. And they held elections after in which donbas votes counted the same as everyone else. Donbas also voted for Ukraine independence from the Soviet union in the 90s. Putin demanded yanukovych cancel the EU treaty and instead sign a treaty with Russia. He threatened to stop selling…

Didn’t he flee because he was at risk of harm? That still doesn’t remove him from the presidency. There’s a process for that which wasn’t followed - the vote isn’t a substitute.

He fled because literally half of kyiv was protesting. He was going to get impeached because he spent 15 years being pro EU and then reneged.

He ordered the berkut to shoot protesters so he might have been charged with crimes for that.

Re: Zelensky says he is ready to negotiate peace

#29

Post by blackeyeblitzar »

throwaway48476 wrote: post #28
blackeyeblitzar wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn’t he flee because he was at risk of harm? That still doesn’t remove him from the presidency. There’s a process for that which wasn’t followed - the vote isn’t a substitute.

He fled because literally half of kyiv was protesting. He was going to get impeached because he spent 15 years being pro EU and then reneged. He ordered the berkut to shoot protesters so he might have been charged with crimes for that.

Why wasn’t he impeached? Isn’t that the right way to handle it?

Re: Zelensky says he is ready to negotiate peace

#30

Post by throwaway48476 »

blackeyeblitzar wrote: post #29
throwaway48476 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He fled because literally half of kyiv was protesting. He was going to get impeached because he spent 15 years being pro EU and then reneged. He ordered the berkut to shoot protesters so he might have been charged with crimes for that.

Why wasn’t he impeached? Isn’t that the right way to handle it?

He got in a helicopter and fled to Moscow before that could happen.
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