Do you have a secret? • Hacker News Board

Re: Do you have a secret?

#21

Post by Retric » Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 5:53 PM UTC

tomku wrote: post #11

wahsd wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, while the sticklers insist on moral purity and perfect argument, they live in a world that operates on FUD and is grotesquely exploited and has become the modus operandi of our government, corporations, and fear mongering right. It is the reason that science and reason cannot take hold in many human societies, because there is a false equivalency of opposition. Opposing heinous attempts to control are…

That's nice rhetoric, but when you disregard the truth in order to keep up in the arms race of lies that you claim the other side started, you become as reprehensible as them.

Telling lies and X is not equally as bad as telling lies and not X. EX: Where X is killing people. 'Smoking cigarettes makes you popular smoking cigarettes makes you unpopular.'

Re: Do you have a secret?

#22

Post by rahulmitra » Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 5:54 PM UTC

if you're not breaking the law you have nothing to fear.

Re: Do you have a secret?

#23

Post by eschulte » Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 5:57 PM UTC

sxp wrote: post #19

It's really annoying when all these people complaining about bills like CISPA and other potentially dangerous bills don't actually mention why the bills are bad. Even the Wikipedia article on CISPA was horrible since it didn't directly quote the bill but just quoted others people paraphrasing the bill. So what in particular is bad about this bill? http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/112/s2105/text

start reading at section 701

Re: Do you have a secret?

#24

Post by larrys » Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 5:57 PM UTC

tomku wrote: post #6

tptacek wrote: post #3

Huh? What does any of this have to do with CISPA? There are good reasons to oppose CISPA. You shouldn't appreciate people trying to manipulate you into opposing it.

There are good reasons to oppose CISPA. You shouldn't appreciate people trying to manipulate you into opposing it. This is something that really annoys me. It's incredibly frustrating to see people argue "on my side", but using reasons that are based almost entirely on FUD and hyperbole. It undermines that entire side of the argument, because people who aren't already on your side assume that if you had valid reasons…

"because people who aren't already on your side assume that if you had valid reasons, you wouldn't be resorting to manipulative exaggerations for shock value."

Related is the idea of building a case by throwing in the entire kitchen sink in order to make your point with both strong and weak points. I've found it's best to try and stick the the basic strongest points. If you put weak points in your argument and people think "that's no big deal" it will detract from your main point and make people think "oh is that all they've got?"

An fictional example to try and illustrate:

"Bill Jeffrey the CEO of XYZ flies in a corporate jet and has a $10 million salary. He also gets free lunch in the cafeteria as well a laptop computer for his house in addition to a company car". (Now add on 10 other mundane things that many execs get)

Re: Do you have a secret?

#25

Post by vinhboy » Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 6:04 PM UTC

Ok. I guess I was the only one who enjoyed the site and soundtrack. I thought it was rather creative.

My only complaint is the scrolling is a bit broken.

Re: Do you have a secret?

#26

Post by larrys » Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 6:08 PM UTC

I question how seriously people would have taken this website if it was designed based on "ransom note" 1990's design standards. And wasn't operated by the age group that has taken up these causes.

It draws attention to the "Center for Rights" http://fightforthefuture.org/ and on that page there are a bunch of hipsters http://fightforthefuture.org/#staff who know how to play things to the media and get taken seriously.

Certainly a case at the very least for the importance of good design.

Re: Do you have a secret?

#27

Post by crusso » Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 6:14 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #21

tomku wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's nice rhetoric, but when you disregard the truth in order to keep up in the arms race of lies that you claim the other side started, you become as reprehensible as them.

Telling lies and X is not equally as bad as telling lies and not X. EX: Where X is killing people. 'Smoking cigarettes makes you popular smoking cigarettes makes you unpopular.'

Unfortunately, we rarely have an absolute scale upon which to judge X. Everyone always claims the moral high ground, justifying their attempts to be deceptive with the same defense you provide there.

Re: Do you have a secret?

#28

Post by ctdonath » Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 6:24 PM UTC

Makes me consider that ObamaCare compels everyone to give the government their medical records. Yeah, I'd consider those secrets subject to 4th Amendment protection.

Re: Do you have a secret?

#29

Post by crusso » Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 6:27 PM UTC

tomku wrote: post #6

tptacek wrote: post #3

Huh? What does any of this have to do with CISPA? There are good reasons to oppose CISPA. You shouldn't appreciate people trying to manipulate you into opposing it.

There are good reasons to oppose CISPA. You shouldn't appreciate people trying to manipulate you into opposing it. This is something that really annoys me. It's incredibly frustrating to see people argue "on my side", but using reasons that are based almost entirely on FUD and hyperbole. It undermines that entire side of the argument, because people who aren't already on your side assume that if you had valid reasons…

Agreed, yet it's also frustrating to live in a world where deceptive and emotional manipulation works because most people aren't that good at recognizing it and counteracting it.

Do you just gnash your teeth and stick to your moral high ground while everything burns?

Or do you "play the game", and use manipulation to achieve the moral good?

Personally, I think I tend to do the former. When I get the relatives' chain email with stories that support my political ideals yet disagree with the facts as I know them or can learn them -- I try to correct the ignorance by sending out a Snopes or other factual link.

Sometimes I feel like a sucker doing that, though. Should I try to correct the email outrage of a few people I know when that outrage might get them into the voting booth flipping the lever the way I want? Will that email outrage insulate those less curious against the deluge of misinformation coming from "the other side"?

Re: Do you have a secret?

#30

Post by jblount » Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 6:29 PM UTC

wavesounds wrote: post #17

The "Privacy Policy" button doesn't work ... how ironic.

Sadly, that was my fault (I'm one of the developers over at FFTF). Thanks for the heads up! Sorry for the foolish mistake.

For those playing along at home, here is our privacy policy: http://fightforthefuture.org/privacy