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'Obelisks', a new class of life living inside humans

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Re: 'Obelisks', a new class of life living inside humans

#21
post #17

If viruses usually aren't considered alive, why would obelisk? I'm also curious how we know these are independent structures versus a by product of our own or our resident bacteria's cellular function. The mRNA seems unrelated to our own, but perhaps there's an unknown process that either generates new extracellular mRNA to create these protiens referenced in the article. Alternatively, could these be mRNA strands th…

I do not agree with considering viruses as not alive. A viral particle outside its host can be considered dead, in the sense that it is inert and it does not have any metabolism, but it is not definitively dead, as it will become alive again when entering a host. Alive in the sense that inside their host cells viruses observe the command "Crescite et multiplicamini" from the bible (grow and multiply), in the same way…

It's as the sibling post says: "alive vs not alive" and "same species vs different species" are just human concepts that we attempt to shoehorn biological reality into. There's nothing about biology itself that says that any given example should have a clear answer either way.

Re: 'Obelisks', a new class of life living inside humans

#23
post #20
post #17

If viruses usually aren't considered alive, why would obelisk? I'm also curious how we know these are independent structures versus a by product of our own or our resident bacteria's cellular function. The mRNA seems unrelated to our own, but perhaps there's an unknown process that either generates new extracellular mRNA to create these protiens referenced in the article. Alternatively, could these be mRNA strands th…

As someone who works on viruses, we don't worry or care whether viruses are alive. It's more of a philosophical question, and distilled down its really about whether viruses fit into a human centric view point of the world. We like to classify things into discrete groups. Biology is not discrete.

I'm about 3/4 done with The Demon in the Freezer (about: Level 4 labwork) and viruses seem very much willed-to-live...

Re: 'Obelisks', a new class of life living inside humans

#25
post #17

If viruses usually aren't considered alive, why would obelisk? I'm also curious how we know these are independent structures versus a by product of our own or our resident bacteria's cellular function. The mRNA seems unrelated to our own, but perhaps there's an unknown process that either generates new extracellular mRNA to create these protiens referenced in the article. Alternatively, could these be mRNA strands th…

Correct.

Viruses are traditionally “not life” because they don’t grow, convert nutrients to energy, or reproduce independently.

(Some smart commenter will point out something, but there is some difference. The complexity chasm between bacterium and virus is huge.)

But applying a colloquial definition, they can be.

Re: 'Obelisks', a new class of life living inside humans

#26

The article makes it sound as though this is something only humans have. Which struck me as very odd. But the paper in Cell says: "• Found globally in diverse niches, obelisks also occur in human stool and oral microbiomes" https://www.cell.com/cell/abstract/S0092-8674(24)01091-2 Much more reasonable.

They resemble a single stranded circular RNA plasmid, stuck together into a hairpin shape. Plant viroids are 250-450 bases long, while obelisks seem to be in the 1000-1200 range. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_RNA -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hepatitis_D

Re: 'Obelisks', a new class of life living inside humans

#27
post #17

If viruses usually aren't considered alive, why would obelisk? I'm also curious how we know these are independent structures versus a by product of our own or our resident bacteria's cellular function. The mRNA seems unrelated to our own, but perhaps there's an unknown process that either generates new extracellular mRNA to create these protiens referenced in the article. Alternatively, could these be mRNA strands th…

Correct. Viruses are traditionally “not life” because they don’t grow, convert nutrients to energy, or reproduce independently. (Some smart commenter will point out something, but there is some difference. The complexity chasm between bacterium and virus is huge.) But applying a colloquial definition, they can be.

Humans don't grow, convert nutrients to energy, or reproduce independently.

Humans need every day about 30 organic substances that they cannot synthesize, so these substances must be obtained from bacteria, plants and other animals.

Due to having internal reserves, a human will not die immediately when isolated from other living beings, but only after a month or even slightly more. A month of independent life is not enough to grow and reproduce.

However a virus that is encapsulated in its transmission form will also not die definitively immediately, but it can survive for many years independently of any other living beings, i.e. much more than a human can live independently.

There is a huge complexity chasm between any bacterial cell and a virus, but there is also a huge complexity chasm between a virus and any mineral or any chemical substance whose synthesis is known to be possible in abiotic conditions.

There is no doubt that cellular living beings and viruses are 2 very different kinds of things, but both are also very different from any non-alive things.

There are many characteristics common for cellular living beings and viruses, so normally one would need a single word for both of them, to avoid enumerating both of them whenever a sentence is true for both.

The most convenient is to call both of them as living. Those who do not include viruses between living beings utter extremely frequently sentences that are either incorrect or incomplete, because they are true for both cellular living beings and for viruses, but the authors mention only "living beings" with the meaning "cellular living beings", even if those sentences are equally true for viruses.

If you call viruses as non-living, then you must also say that humans and most animals have among their ancestors non-living entities, because our genome incorporates genes that have been obtained from viral ancestors.

The concept of viruses as "non-alive" has been an overcompensation for the previous belief that viruses might be living beings like any others. When it has been discovered than viruses are very different from cellular living beings there has been a fashion to call them non-alive, to demonstrate that one is up-to-date with scientific knowledge and one knows that viruses are very different from cellular beings in many features, even if they are alike in others.

Unfortunately this phenomenon has been very frequent in the history of scientific terminology. There are plenty of examples when after some people had discovered that some things are more different from other related things than previously believed, they gave a new name to their discovery, claiming complete distinctness from what was previously known, even if the correct point of view was midway, i.e. even if the new things were distinct enough to be classified as something different, they also shared enough characteristics with what was previously known to be better considered as just a new subclass of those things.

Re: 'Obelisks', a new class of life living inside humans

#28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct. Viruses are traditionally “not life” because they don’t grow, convert nutrients to energy, or reproduce independently. (Some smart commenter will point out something, but there is some difference. The complexity chasm between bacterium and virus is huge.) But applying a colloquial definition, they can be.

Humans don't grow, convert nutrients to energy, or reproduce independently. Humans need every day about 30 organic substances that they cannot synthesize, so these substances must be obtained from bacteria, plants and other animals. Due to having internal reserves, a human will not die immediately when isolated from other living beings, but only after a month or even slightly more. A month of independent life is not…

"Independently" was a modifier to reproduction, not growing, or converting nutrients to energy.

> you must also say that humans and most animals have among their ancestors non-living entities

That is the idea of evolution: non-organic matter producing organics producing life.

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