Live data from Hacker News

When Greedy Algorithms Can Be Faster [C++]

16bpp.net

21–30 of 30 posts

Re: When Greedy Algorithms Can Be Faster [C++]

#21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> at least for sqrt(), internally it's likely implemented as a heuristic guess Square roots are implemented in hardware: https://www.felixcloutier.com/x86/sqrtsd > In software, you'd normally iterate Newton's Method Software normally computes trigonometric functions (and other complicated ones like exponents and std::erf) with a high-degree polynomial approximation.

>Square roots are implemented in hardware But how does that hardware implementation work internally? The point I'm trying to make is that it is probably an (in-hardware) loop that uses Newton's Method. ETA: The point being that, although in the source code it looks like all looks have been eliminated, they really haven't been if you dig deeper.

> how does that hardware implementation work internally?

I don’t know, but based on performance difference between FP32 and FP64 square root instructions, the implementation probably produces 4-5 bits of mantissa per cycle.

Re: When Greedy Algorithms Can Be Faster [C++]

#22
Isn't there a likely faster analytical solution? At least I think sqrt, sin, and cos are generally considered to be slow.

Maybe this:

1. Generate random X [-1 to 1]

2. Based on X you can calculate a range of legal Y that will still fall within the circle. Try to use a lookup table+interpolation with desired resolution to make this really fast if there's not some sufficiently fast hardware instructions we can abuse.

3. Generate random Y in that range.

Re: When Greedy Algorithms Can Be Faster [C++]

#23
I think I would call it naive algorithm rather than greedy.

It looked like an interesting problem so I spent some time this morning exploring if there would be any performance improvement by pregenerating an array of X items (where X around 1M to 16M items) and then randomly returning one of them at a time. I explored the project and copied the functions to be as faithful as the original implementation as possible.

Generating 10M unit sphere (best of 3 runs, g++ 13, linux, Intel i7-8565U, one core for tests):

  - naive/rejection: ~574ms
  - analytical: ~1122ms
  - pregen 1M elements: ~96ms
That's almost 6x faster than rejection method. Setup of the 1M elements is done once and does not count on the metrics. Using double type, using float yields around 4x improvements.

After looking at those results I decided to try on the project itself, so I downloaded, compiled and applied similar optimizations in the project, only updating circle and sphere random generators (with 16M unit vectors that are only created once on app lifetime) but got almost no noticeable benefits (marginal at most). Hard to tell because of the random nature of the raytracing implementation. On the bright side the image quality was on par. Honestly I was afraid this method would generate poor visuals.

Just for the record, I'm talking about something as simple as:

  std::vector g_unitSpherePregen;
  uint32_t g_unitSpherePregenIndex = 0;

  void setupUnitSpherePregen(uint32_t nElements) {
    g_unitSpherePregen.resize(nElements);
    for (auto i = 0; i 
I tried as well using a psrng (std::mt19937 and xorshf96) in unitSpherePregen instead of the incremented variable, but increment was faster and yielded good visual results.

Next step would be profiling, but I don't think I will invest more time on this.

Edit: fix formatting

Re: When Greedy Algorithms Can Be Faster [C++]

#24

Isn't there a likely faster analytical solution? At least I think sqrt, sin, and cos are generally considered to be slow. Maybe this: 1. Generate random X [-1 to 1] 2. Based on X you can calculate a range of legal Y that will still fall within the circle. Try to use a lookup table+interpolation with desired resolution to make this really fast if there's not some sufficiently fast hardware instructions we can abuse. 3…

A potential issue with that is needing to adjust the distribution of either X or Y, since if X and Y remain uniform, then there will be a lot of points packed into the sides of the circle with higher density than the center column.

Re: When Greedy Algorithms Can Be Faster [C++]

#25

I think I would call it naive algorithm rather than greedy. It looked like an interesting problem so I spent some time this morning exploring if there would be any performance improvement by pregenerating an array of X items (where X around 1M to 16M items) and then randomly returning one of them at a time. I explored the project and copied the functions to be as faithful as the original implementation as possible. G…

I also came up with an alternative implementation: https://gist.github.com/camel-cdr/d16fd2be1fd7b71622649e6bc7...

The idea is based on the Ziggurat Method. You overlap the circle with n boxes that each encapsulate the same amount of area of the underlying circle, select a random box, and then do rejection.

With 128 boxes, this reduces the average number of additional iterations from 27% to 0.7%, which should massively reduce the number of branch miss predictions.

It ended up about 2x faster the simple rejection method.

I haven't applied this to spheres yet, but that should also be possible.

Re: When Greedy Algorithms Can Be Faster [C++]

#27

I think I would call it naive algorithm rather than greedy. It looked like an interesting problem so I spent some time this morning exploring if there would be any performance improvement by pregenerating an array of X items (where X around 1M to 16M items) and then randomly returning one of them at a time. I explored the project and copied the functions to be as faithful as the original implementation as possible. G…

I also came up with an alternative implementation: https://gist.github.com/camel-cdr/d16fd2be1fd7b71622649e6bc7... The idea is based on the Ziggurat Method. You overlap the circle with n boxes that each encapsulate the same amount of area of the underlying circle, select a random box, and then do rejection. With 128 boxes, this reduces the average number of additional iterations from 27% to 0.7%, which should massive…

Didn't know about Ziggurat algorithm, the use of a table to directly accept or reject is interesting, although I think I would need to implement myself to fully understand. Your comments in the code are great, but I still need I would need to dedicate some time to fully grasp it.

I'm wondering what if a 2D or 3D array was used instead, so that instead of working with the unit circle / unit sphere, you worked on a 256x circle/sphere.

Assuming the center of the circle/sphere was on the position (127, 127) or (127, 127, 127), then you could precompute which of those elements in the array would be part of that 256 sphere/circle radius and only the elements in the boundary of the circle/sphere would need to be marked as special. You would only need 3 values (2 bits per item).

   0 = not in the circle/sphere
   1 = in the circle/sphere
   2 = might be in or out
Then you would only need to randomly pick a point and just a lookup to evaluate whether is on the 2d/3d array. Most of the times simple math would be involved and simple accept/reject would cause it to return a value. I guess it would also produce the number of additional retries to 0.7% on a circle (one circle intersection for every 128 tiems = 1/128 = 0.78%).

From my limited understanding, what I'm saying looks like a simpler implementation but would require more memory and in the end would have the same runtime performance as yours (assuming memory and processor caches were the same, which are probably not). Uhm... I guess the implementation you present is actually doing something similar but with a quarter of the circle, so you need less memory.

Interesting, thanks for sharing.

Re: When Greedy Algorithms Can Be Faster [C++]

#28

Isn't there a likely faster analytical solution? At least I think sqrt, sin, and cos are generally considered to be slow. Maybe this: 1. Generate random X [-1 to 1] 2. Based on X you can calculate a range of legal Y that will still fall within the circle. Try to use a lookup table+interpolation with desired resolution to make this really fast if there's not some sufficiently fast hardware instructions we can abuse. 3…

> At least I think sqrt, sin, and cos are generally considered to be slow. […] Based on X you can calculate a range of legal Y that will still fall within the circle.

Yup, that calculation is called sqrt(1 - x²).

> Try to use a lookup table+interpolation with desired resolution to make this really fast

On modern hardware (like, most architectures from 1995-ish onwards), LUTs are mostly slower than polynomial-based solutions for the same level of accuracy.

> 1. Generate random X [-1 to 1]

As others have pointed out, this is already wrong unless you intend to reject some of the solutions later.

Re: When Greedy Algorithms Can Be Faster [C++]

#29
post #5
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apropos of SIMD – I'm also surprised that the inner loop of the rejection-based algorithm optimized to MMX, but not the analytic algorithm! I would like to think the rejection algorithm after -O3 is benefiting from branch prediction and all sorts of modern speculation optimizations. But I imagine the real test of that would be running these benchmarks would be running these benchmarks on a 5-10ish year old uarch.

Ten years ago, you already have Skylake with pretty good indirect branch predictors...

It doesn't matter because you can't predict random data which is what the example is using. Branch predictors work on the premise that 95% of the time the branch resolves the same way which is damn common in most code. The closer your branches look to a normal distribution vs bimodal, the worse the branch predictor is going to perform.

The rejector is going to be faster because more iterations can be kept in the reorder buffer at once. The CPU is going to have to keep all the instructions post-branch in the reorder buffer until the branch is retired. If it's waiting on an instruction with an especially long latency like a square root it's probably speculatively already finished the work anyway, rejected or not.

If the branch rejects after the work is done the reorder buffer can retire each instruction of the random generation algorithm as it comes and then wait on however many branches at the end which can also be run in parallel because those branches aren't dependent on each other. All those branches which are doing a square root will also be pipelined properly instead of putting bubbles everywhere.

Re: When Greedy Algorithms Can Be Faster [C++]

#30
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ten years ago, you already have Skylake with pretty good indirect branch predictors...

It doesn't matter because you can't predict random data which is what the example is using. Branch predictors work on the premise that 95% of the time the branch resolves the same way which is damn common in most code. The closer your branches look to a normal distribution vs bimodal, the worse the branch predictor is going to perform. The rejector is going to be faster because more iterations can be kept in the reor…

My point was that there hasn't been a revolution in branch prediction (or really any sort of speculation) the last 5–10 years. Things have become incrementally better as always, and the M1 presumably has some sort of pointer value speculation, but by and large, things are generally similar. So running on a 5–10 year old microarchitecture won't change the qualitative results much.

If you talked about running on a 30-year-old architecture, then sure, that would tell you something about the effect of modern speculation on the code.

Post reply on HN