A Cold War Satellite Program Called Parcae Revolutionized Signals Intelligence • Hacker News Board

Re: A Cold War Satellite Program Called Parcae Revolutionized Signals Intelligence

#21

Post by jschveibinz » Fri, Jan 24, 2025, 6:53 PM UTC

scarecrowbob wrote: post #20

themaninthedark wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MAD stands for Mutually Assured Destruction. They type of imbalance that is being talked about removed the "Mutual". So total destruction of your opponent and minimal to no damage to your side. This is why things like "decapitation strikes" where you destroy the leadership and prevent enemy launches were considered. This is also why the U.S. has a nuclear trident: Land ICBM, Sub SLBM and Strategic bombers that are re…

I think your assertion here relies heavily on the unstated assumption that the folks running states are psychotics who would happily see the world burn. If you assume that folks don't want to murder millions of other humans just on general principle (without giving evidence, I think this is true), then there is the position C: "regardless of the balance of destructive power, people try to avoid mass murder and mainta…

What?

Re: A Cold War Satellite Program Called Parcae Revolutionized Signals Intelligence

#22

Post by themaninthedark » Fri, Jan 24, 2025, 9:25 PM UTC

scarecrowbob wrote: post #20

themaninthedark wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MAD stands for Mutually Assured Destruction. They type of imbalance that is being talked about removed the "Mutual". So total destruction of your opponent and minimal to no damage to your side. This is why things like "decapitation strikes" where you destroy the leadership and prevent enemy launches were considered. This is also why the U.S. has a nuclear trident: Land ICBM, Sub SLBM and Strategic bombers that are re…

I think your assertion here relies heavily on the unstated assumption that the folks running states are psychotics who would happily see the world burn. If you assume that folks don't want to murder millions of other humans just on general principle (without giving evidence, I think this is true), then there is the position C: "regardless of the balance of destructive power, people try to avoid mass murder and mainta…

>I think your assertion here relies heavily on the unstated assumption that the folks running states are psychotics who would happily see the world burn.

I disagree....

My understanding of the MAD philosophy is not that it was born out of psychotics but rather a rather cold, rational war gaming process.

From Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_assured_destruction >It is based on the theory of rational deterrence, which holds that the threat of using strong weapons against the enemy prevents the enemy's use of those same weapons. The strategy is a form of Nash equilibrium in which, once armed, neither side has any incentive to initiate a conflict or to disarm.

You have to put yourself in time and place of those who developed the theory: Coming out of the Second World War where both the United States and the Soviet Union were convinced that each other were planning on taking the other over, this is what drove the USSR to develop the atomic bomb and the US to start NATO.

Fear, not psychopathy drove their actions.

>folks running the US (given thier history of slavery and genocide) often do not see other groups of humans as "human", and thus would make the calculation you're making.

The same argument can be made for any group of people around the world, almost every society has done the same thing.(There a a few, small groups that may not have i.e. small tribes in the Amazon)

Re: A Cold War Satellite Program Called Parcae Revolutionized Signals Intelligence

#23

Post by LargoLasskhyfv » Sat, Jan 25, 2025, 2:08 AM UTC

themaninthedark wrote: post #22

scarecrowbob wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your assertion here relies heavily on the unstated assumption that the folks running states are psychotics who would happily see the world burn. If you assume that folks don't want to murder millions of other humans just on general principle (without giving evidence, I think this is true), then there is the position C: "regardless of the balance of destructive power, people try to avoid mass murder and mainta…

>I think your assertion here relies heavily on the unstated assumption that the folks running states are psychotics who would happily see the world burn. I disagree.... My understanding of the MAD philosophy is not that it was born out of psychotics but rather a rather cold, rational war gaming process. From Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_assured_destruction >It is based on the theory of rational det…

> My understanding of the MAD philosophy is not that it was born out of psychotics…

> The strategy is a form of Nash equilibrium…

Ahem. (cough cough)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Forbes_Nash_Jr.#Mental_il...

Re: A Cold War Satellite Program Called Parcae Revolutionized Signals Intelligence

#24

Post by themaninthedark » Sat, Jan 25, 2025, 3:35 PM UTC

LargoLasskhyfv wrote: post #23

themaninthedark wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think your assertion here relies heavily on the unstated assumption that the folks running states are psychotics who would happily see the world burn. I disagree.... My understanding of the MAD philosophy is not that it was born out of psychotics but rather a rather cold, rational war gaming process. From Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_assured_destruction >It is based on the theory of rational det…

> My understanding of the MAD philosophy is not that it was born out of psychotics… > The strategy is a form of Nash equilibrium … Ahem. (cough cough) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Forbes_Nash_Jr.#Mental_il...

I would argue that just because Nash had paranoid schizophrenic does not mean that application of his theories are inherently psychotic.

Otherwise we would paint all applications of the AC induction motor with the same brush as Tesla had mental issues as well.

Re: A Cold War Satellite Program Called Parcae Revolutionized Signals Intelligence

#25

Post by scarecrowbob » Sat, Jan 25, 2025, 6:23 PM UTC

themaninthedark wrote: post #24

LargoLasskhyfv wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My understanding of the MAD philosophy is not that it was born out of psychotics… > The strategy is a form of Nash equilibrium … Ahem. (cough cough) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Forbes_Nash_Jr.#Mental_il...

I would argue that just because Nash had paranoid schizophrenic does not mean that application of his theories are inherently psychotic. Otherwise we would paint all applications of the AC induction motor with the same brush as Tesla had mental issues as well.

On one hand, yeah, I agree.

On the other hand, I think that being willing to murder millions of people for literally any reason might be a marker of some psychiatric issue.

Deciding that it can come down to "cold reason" just makes it worse.

themaninthedark, I understood your position before you restated it.

For instance, when you wrote "almost every society has done the same thing.(There a a few, small groups that may not have i.e. small tribes in the Amazon)" , the "few small groups" is exactly what I am talking about when I describe how people in this culture "do not see other groups of humans as "human"".

I understand, deeply and intimately, this idea because it's so prevalent that it is almost like water surrounding fish.

I suppose that to be a "real" civilization is to be willing and able to incinerate the planet (through economic or military power), so it's no surprise that you're not seeing the vast majority of folks on the planet who despise that line of thought.

That desire to dominate has often seemed to me to be the resurgence of the buried Christian Dominionism which has been repressed to the root of most classically liberal thought- if you can't control yourself through reason then are you a person? If you can't dispose of the world through the dictates of your reason, are you really a government?