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Japan Offers Free Daycare to Boost Tokyo's Falling Birth Rate

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Re: Japan Offers Free Daycare to Boost Tokyo's Falling Birth Rate

#21

Post by forgotoldacc »

hammock wrote: post #11
jopsen wrote: post #5

Falling birth rates is a problem in most wealthy industrialized societies. Being up a 4am to greet my wife who's been up since 1am with a screaming child. I'm not sure exactly what kind of benefits could convince us that he needs siblings :) Just saying, that while I certainly applaud the effort. I don't see any easy ways to fix the issue: kids are hard work, there are many other things you could do with your life.

>Falling birth rates is a problem in most wealthy industrialized societies. The most fascinating part of this is that, against income, fertility is a bathtub-shaped curve. The poorest and richest have the most kids, which the middle class drags the whole nation down. I get the feeling many have this idea that the more educated /career-oriented you are, the more you delay kids or have less of them. But that is not the…

This is pure speculation, but I imagine after you attain a certain degree of wealth, you just hand the kids over to someone and give them a paycheck. Certain megabillionaires in the US have loads of kids and they're treated like goldfish. They're nice decorations for your photo ops, but otherwise, you just pay someone to visit your house and feed them a couple times a day. And it doesn't matter whether you have 1 or 12 because they're all fed at once anyways.

Re: Japan Offers Free Daycare to Boost Tokyo's Falling Birth Rate

#22

Post by mindwok »

alexpotato wrote: post #9
jopsen wrote: post #5

Falling birth rates is a problem in most wealthy industrialized societies. Being up a 4am to greet my wife who's been up since 1am with a screaming child. I'm not sure exactly what kind of benefits could convince us that he needs siblings :) Just saying, that while I certainly applaud the effort. I don't see any easy ways to fix the issue: kids are hard work, there are many other things you could do with your life.

This has been parenting for the last several thousand years. I say this not to be flippant or sarcastic but rather to ask how our ancestors seemed fine with the above but we seem less so? (To be fair, I have 3 kids and totally get why your scenario might lower the odds. I'll say that even with the 1am wakeups, the "I love you!" from a toddler is one of the best feelings ever.)

I believe the answer is that there is far more interesting things to do with your life. It's quite easy to imagine a life where you're occupied up to your mid thirties with things like university, starting a career in a field you're actually interested in, maybe moving locations once or twice, travelling, working overseas. This plays out even at the relationship level: people in their 20's are far less committal, and prefer the freedom to explore what life has to offer.

Compare this to even just 50 years ago. These options were limited to the highest classes of society. People tended to settle down and have children because that was the sensible next thing to do in life.

Re: Japan Offers Free Daycare to Boost Tokyo's Falling Birth Rate

#23

Post by dyauspitr »

yoyohello13 wrote: post #13
alexpotato wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has been parenting for the last several thousand years. I say this not to be flippant or sarcastic but rather to ask how our ancestors seemed fine with the above but we seem less so? (To be fair, I have 3 kids and totally get why your scenario might lower the odds. I'll say that even with the 1am wakeups, the "I love you!" from a toddler is one of the best feelings ever.)

> ask how our ancestors seemed fine with the above but we seem less so? Maybe they weren’t fine with it. They just didn’t have any other choice. Now we do, and turns out a lot of people choose not to have kids when given the choice. Honestly, I think we will have a rough couple generations, then nature will take its course and humans will reach a new equilibrium that factors in birth control.

It’s only a choice if you live purely for yourself. It’s the job of the state to make short sighted, self absorbed thinking like this unpalatable since people can only think in self absorbed, short term ways.

Re: Japan Offers Free Daycare to Boost Tokyo's Falling Birth Rate

#24

Post by andrewclunn »

Kids are hard. People are selfish. Birth control works. The dating market is torture. Divorce is rampant. We're constantly bombarded with environmental destruction predictions. Most wealthy nations have leaders that seem content to replace the existing populous with poor immigrants. Even the poor nations that these immigrants are coming from are now seeing their birth rates collapse. Culture and laws requiring constant child supervision and care make parenting a full time job (for at least a few years). The prices of basic living expenses keep rising. But don't worry, free child care will save us!

Only the super wealthy and those with no money at all are reproducing above replacement levels, and I'm here to watch as the urban "economic growth at the expense of everything else" culture consumes itself into non-existence in a generation or two.

Re: Japan Offers Free Daycare to Boost Tokyo's Falling Birth Rate

#25

Post by twelve40 »

alexpotato wrote: post #9
jopsen wrote: post #5

Falling birth rates is a problem in most wealthy industrialized societies. Being up a 4am to greet my wife who's been up since 1am with a screaming child. I'm not sure exactly what kind of benefits could convince us that he needs siblings :) Just saying, that while I certainly applaud the effort. I don't see any easy ways to fix the issue: kids are hard work, there are many other things you could do with your life.

This has been parenting for the last several thousand years. I say this not to be flippant or sarcastic but rather to ask how our ancestors seemed fine with the above but we seem less so? (To be fair, I have 3 kids and totally get why your scenario might lower the odds. I'll say that even with the 1am wakeups, the "I love you!" from a toddler is one of the best feelings ever.)

for the last several thousand years it's been a matter of survival, a help in the fields and your social security, and with a crazy high mortality, had to have many

it's objectively hard work that nowadays may not even pay off at all, aside from this feelings part, which to me always has been balanced out with acute paranoia about being responsible for a fragile live human.

Re: Japan Offers Free Daycare to Boost Tokyo's Falling Birth Rate

#26

Post by losteric »

alexpotato wrote: post #9
jopsen wrote: post #5

Falling birth rates is a problem in most wealthy industrialized societies. Being up a 4am to greet my wife who's been up since 1am with a screaming child. I'm not sure exactly what kind of benefits could convince us that he needs siblings :) Just saying, that while I certainly applaud the effort. I don't see any easy ways to fix the issue: kids are hard work, there are many other things you could do with your life.

This has been parenting for the last several thousand years. I say this not to be flippant or sarcastic but rather to ask how our ancestors seemed fine with the above but we seem less so? (To be fair, I have 3 kids and totally get why your scenario might lower the odds. I'll say that even with the 1am wakeups, the "I love you!" from a toddler is one of the best feelings ever.)

Multi-generational families with tighter communities spreading the work.

My parents grew up spending a lot of time with their aunts and uncles. I grew up with my parents because they didn't have extended family or friends that could help. Now my generation, I see at least more "family circles" sharing in child care (eg Friday sleepovers at one rotating family, so the other parents can go out). I can't imagine how easy it would be if more grandparents were nearby.

Plus it was just cheaper to live back then. Now the norm is both parents work full time to stay barely above water economically, maximizing shareholder value.

Re: Japan Offers Free Daycare to Boost Tokyo's Falling Birth Rate

#27

Post by ggm »

I suffer from confirmation bias in this, but the Japanese women I know all live outside mainland Japan, and are mostly in mixed marriages with non-Japanese men and to a woman they say childbirth in Japan, and expectations on new mothes in Japan are net-negative compared to the english-speaking west, with some small things the other way. Aspects of family mean they are more likely to have a support network in Japan, and there are quite a lot of good child friendly social experiences for them. None of them said the birth experience in Japanese Maternity Hospitals was good, or as good as in the west.

The birth rate problem in the developed economies is not just a Japanese problem, but if this biased view is true, more generally accurate, it cannot help: Why would you want to have kids, if its a shit experience?

Free daycare is sensible but I suspect they will have to start 9 months back in the flow pipe, and also do some things around labour laws for return-to-work.

Re: Japan Offers Free Daycare to Boost Tokyo's Falling Birth Rate

#28

Post by yoyohello13 »

dyauspitr wrote: post #23
yoyohello13 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ask how our ancestors seemed fine with the above but we seem less so? Maybe they weren’t fine with it. They just didn’t have any other choice. Now we do, and turns out a lot of people choose not to have kids when given the choice. Honestly, I think we will have a rough couple generations, then nature will take its course and humans will reach a new equilibrium that factors in birth control.

It’s only a choice if you live purely for yourself. It’s the job of the state to make short sighted, self absorbed thinking like this unpalatable since people can only think in self absorbed, short term ways.

What a misanthropic world view.

How about we make it easier for people who want kids to have them, and we stop vilifying people who don’t want kids?

There are many ways to contribute to society. Some of the kindest most selfless people I know don’t want kids. It’s fine, humanity will manage.

Re: Japan Offers Free Daycare to Boost Tokyo's Falling Birth Rate

#29

Post by doctorpangloss »

mmiyer wrote: post #20
hammock wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Falling birth rates is a problem in most wealthy industrialized societies. The most fascinating part of this is that, against income, fertility is a bathtub-shaped curve. The poorest and richest have the most kids, which the middle class drags the whole nation down. I get the feeling many have this idea that the more educated /career-oriented you are, the more you delay kids or have less of them. But that is not the…

I think it's the point at which you can hire a nanny - being able to offload a lot of parenting responsibilities to someone else helps.

A lot of people can afford nannies. I think it’s more that parents want to raise their kids really well. As opposed to, “what happens, happens.” So naturally you want to do that yourself.

Re: Japan Offers Free Daycare to Boost Tokyo's Falling Birth Rate

#30

Post by EZ-E »

alexpotato wrote: post #9
jopsen wrote: post #5

Falling birth rates is a problem in most wealthy industrialized societies. Being up a 4am to greet my wife who's been up since 1am with a screaming child. I'm not sure exactly what kind of benefits could convince us that he needs siblings :) Just saying, that while I certainly applaud the effort. I don't see any easy ways to fix the issue: kids are hard work, there are many other things you could do with your life.

This has been parenting for the last several thousand years. I say this not to be flippant or sarcastic but rather to ask how our ancestors seemed fine with the above but we seem less so? (To be fair, I have 3 kids and totally get why your scenario might lower the odds. I'll say that even with the 1am wakeups, the "I love you!" from a toddler is one of the best feelings ever.)

I think multi generation housing helped where older generations took care of the child when parents were working, that both parents were not necessarily working, and that kids did not need constant supervision in the sense that they could be left to run around as long as you lived outside major urban centers.
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