A new model of school in Sweden • Hacker News Board

Re: A new model of school in Sweden

#21

Post by Retric » Wed, Jul 18, 2012, 4:45 PM UTC

Muzza wrote: post #19

Retric wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a BS semantic argument. First off you can be 'home schooled'. Far more importantly the question is does privatizing the school system improve average student performance OR lower costs and the answer is no.

What on earth do you mean? Someone (the article) claimed the system was free market. I showed otherwise. It's about as far from semantic BS arguments as you can come. I was not debating the efficiency of the private schools visavi public schools. Introducing strawmen is stupid. Also: home schooling has been illegal in Sweden since 2010.

People still home-school in Sweden. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeschooling_international_sta...

More to the point, while it's mandated that people buy car insurance few people argue that that's not a 'free market' because regulation is not the same thing as a state monopoly. After-all people also need food.

Re: A new model of school in Sweden

#22

Post by gahahaha » Wed, Jul 18, 2012, 7:23 PM UTC

marbleint wrote: post #12

gahahaha wrote: post #5

The experiences that were made from privatizing Swedish schools were: * generally worse results and increased inequality * 5 companies dominate the market, and makes huge profits * Sweden has fallen from 3rd to 19th on the PISA test in reading. * huge quality differences between schools * schools have become a "sorting machine" where motivated parents and pupils choose certain schools and avoid other schools. * The e…

Yeah, any data to back this up would be great

Any piece of info in particular you wanted sourced, or just all of it? You might need to whip out Google translate.

Jakobsson, Anders; Oscarsson, Magnus; Karlsson, Karl - Göran. Det fria skolvalet hotar kvaliteten Svensk skola. http://www.newsmill.se/artikel/2010/12/09/forskare-fria-skol...

About Sweden's plummeting PISA scores in reading:

PISA 2009 – Executive Summary, OECD 2010 page 15

Re: A new model of school in Sweden

#23

Post by gahahaha » Wed, Jul 18, 2012, 7:23 PM UTC

Egregore wrote: post #8

gahahaha wrote: post #5

The experiences that were made from privatizing Swedish schools were: * generally worse results and increased inequality * 5 companies dominate the market, and makes huge profits * Sweden has fallen from 3rd to 19th on the PISA test in reading. * huge quality differences between schools * schools have become a "sorting machine" where motivated parents and pupils choose certain schools and avoid other schools. * The e…

Can you provide any links?

See my other comment: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4262430

Re: A new model of school in Sweden

#24

Post by kaonashi » Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 2:37 AM UTC

gahahaha wrote: post #5

The experiences that were made from privatizing Swedish schools were: * generally worse results and increased inequality * 5 companies dominate the market, and makes huge profits * Sweden has fallen from 3rd to 19th on the PISA test in reading. * huge quality differences between schools * schools have become a "sorting machine" where motivated parents and pupils choose certain schools and avoid other schools. * The e…

Mr Ledin goes one better. “We do not mind being compared to McDonald's,” he says. “If we're religious about anything, it's standardisation. We tell our teachers it is more important to do things the same way than to do them well.”

Re: A new model of school in Sweden

#25

Post by Muzza » Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 10:51 AM UTC

Retric wrote: post #21

Muzza wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What on earth do you mean? Someone (the article) claimed the system was free market. I showed otherwise. It's about as far from semantic BS arguments as you can come. I was not debating the efficiency of the private schools visavi public schools. Introducing strawmen is stupid. Also: home schooling has been illegal in Sweden since 2010.

People still home-school in Sweden. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeschooling_international_sta... More to the point, while it's mandated that people buy car insurance few people argue that that's not a 'free market' because regulation is not the same thing as a state monopoly. After-all people also need food.

"Status: Virtually illegal"

Yeah, you got me (insert rolleyes).

Car insurance also doesn't operate on a free market, for the reason you cite. I don't care that "few people" would argue it (appeal to authority; you like fallacies don't you?). You seem to think that something is either a state monopoly or a free market, but it is not so.

Re: A new model of school in Sweden

#26

Post by Muzza » Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 11:34 AM UTC

olifante wrote: post #20

Muzza wrote: post #9

The school system in Sweden is many things (despicable, horrendous, etc etc), but free market it is not. These private schools don't operate on a free market - the government supplies the "customers" (students) under penalty of prison* for the students' parents, for crying out loud. * Or possibly even worse: a student who doesn't go to school is liable to end up in the clutches of the meddling welfare board.

I very much doubt that the Swedish school system can be seriously described as despicable or horrendous, even if it has fallen from its former glory. Would you care to elaborate?

All mandatory school systems are despicable and horrendous. The first major issue is the coercion involved: they control a child's life for 9 years (or even 12 years in some countries). It's absurd. This alone should be reason enough to dissolve the entire public school system (and possibly put various Ministers of Eduction to trial).

The second major issue is that they are a tool the state uses to indoctrinate children (naive by nature) with whatever the correct values of the day are. Prussia (where public schooling originated) needed obedient soldiers, modern-day Sweden needs a large underclass of socialists willing to support various hare-brained political schemes. The schools reflect this. What happens, for instance, if you call homosexuality "not normal"[1] in a Swedish school? It gets you an F in biology and a label as a "homophobe" in the state-run media[2]. One wonders what happened to students who questioned communism in the Soviet Union.

See "Deschooling society" by Ivan Illich, "Underground history of the American school system" by John Taylor Gatto.

[1] Which is surely true, statistically speaking.

[2] http://www.svt.se/nyheter/regionalt/abc/homofobi-gav-underka...

Re: A new model of school in Sweden

#27

Post by Retric » Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 2:19 PM UTC

Muzza wrote: post #25

Retric wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People still home-school in Sweden. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeschooling_international_sta... More to the point, while it's mandated that people buy car insurance few people argue that that's not a 'free market' because regulation is not the same thing as a state monopoly. After-all people also need food.

"Status: Virtually illegal" Yeah, you got me (insert rolleyes). Car insurance also doesn't operate on a free market, for the reason you cite. I don't care that "few people" would argue it (appeal to authority; you like fallacies don't you?). You seem to think that something is either a state monopoly or a free market, but it is not so.

Words gain meaning based on what the largest group of people think. If 90% of the population think grapes refers to grapes including the stem and you try and restrict the definition further the only way to back that up is an appeal to authority. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Abhar-iran.JPG

PS: Most economists accept that many completely unregulated market tends to monopoly's which try to extract rents. However, once a monopoly shows up they no longer accept that it's a 'free market' so the term 'free market' does not mean what happens when government does not interfere with a market. After that it get's complected as to where the line is drawn between free market and something else, however the bar is surprisingly high as for example moderate sin taxes don't prevent free markets.