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The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

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Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#21

Post by dannyobrien »

MadnessASAP wrote: post #4

I have to wonder A) What does DRM realistically accomplish for the media companies? And, B) How are these DRM schemes actually being defeated? I do occasionally don my pirate hat* and have never had an issue finding what I want at the quality I want within an hour of a episode/movie being released to streaming. That would seem to indicate that these efforts at DRM are actually failing to have any noticeable effect at…

IIUI it's mostly a question of a mess of contractual language and incentives. Rightsholders license content, and in their licensing contracts they require a certain level of DRM for certain products. So streamers, etc, implement the DRM to comply with those contracts. Nobody at any level has an incentive or leverage to change the contracts, so the DRM continues.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#22

Post by zb3 »

stackghost wrote: post #8
_yb2s wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Normies” are never going to care about the stuff the FSF is interested in. I don’t think you can extract the philosophy from the eccentric personalities that created it, they’re one in the same.

Normies are who you need to convince if you want to effect social change. If the FSF sticks to their current mission of preaching to the choir, they'll remain about as relevant as they are today, which isn't a lot.

People in power and people with money are who you need to convince..

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#23

Post by mjg59 »

zb3 wrote: post #15

> GPU vendors have quietly deployed all of this technology Citation or technical details needed. Obviously it "makes sense" that for 4K HD content you "probably" want to offload the decoding into the GPU, but this is the first time I see this mentioned and there are no links to technical details. In contrast, TEE / TrustZone and even the recent AVF with pVM - these are well documented technologies.

The Playready docs make it clear the implementation is either in TEE or implemented in GPU hardware, and x86 has no TEE, so. You can easily find driver changelogs describing it being enabled for different hardware generations.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#24

Post by talldayo »

stackghost wrote: post #2

>The FSF's focus on TPMs here is not only technically wrong, it's indicative of a failure to understand what's actually happening in the industry. This sounds 100% on-brand for the FSF. The FSF's primary public-facing persona has peculiar computing habits so far removed from the mainstream that it's likely he has absolutely no clue how the real world works. In fact by his own statement he has to rely on volunteers to…

I think that's a misunderstanding of what the FSF stands for overall, though. The FSF can never be a diplomatic negotiator for the benefit of free software; they are idealists, even when it serves against their own interests. Their whole shtick is not settling for half-baked appeasements, and so they're destined to be a pariah of the tech industry at-large. Neither you nor me can stop them, it's entirely within their right to advocate and for practice simpler software.

The statement criticized by the OP certainly seems warranted, but it's less endemic of the FSF removing itself from the mainstream and more like the mainstream has abandoned free software.

> The FSF's primary public-facing persona has peculiar computing habits

You know, the FSF would probably argue that our computing habits are the peculiar one. And unless you can tell me about the code your iPhone runs in detail, they're probably (albeit begrudgingly) correct.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#25

Post by refulgentis »

MadnessASAP wrote: post #4

I have to wonder A) What does DRM realistically accomplish for the media companies? And, B) How are these DRM schemes actually being defeated? I do occasionally don my pirate hat* and have never had an issue finding what I want at the quality I want within an hour of a episode/movie being released to streaming. That would seem to indicate that these efforts at DRM are actually failing to have any noticeable effect at…

That things are just annoying enough to pirate that there isn't ever a freeforall, like limewire or kazaa, again.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#26

Post by osy »

> I'm going to be honest here and say that I don't know what Microsoft's actual motivation for requiring a TPM in Windows 11 is.

It is quite obvious: to force people to buy a new PC. TPM provides no added security value for the vast majority of users[1] but it is a convenient hardware that has only started to become standard (fTPM) in PCs built in the last ~8 years so it provides an excuse for Microsoft to declare computers older than that (which can run Windows 10) obsolete using "security" as an easy scapegoat.

[1]: https://gist.github.com/osy/45e612345376a65c56d0678834535166

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#27

Post by fluidcruft »

bambax wrote: post #16
MadnessASAP wrote: post #4

I have to wonder A) What does DRM realistically accomplish for the media companies? And, B) How are these DRM schemes actually being defeated? I do occasionally don my pirate hat* and have never had an issue finding what I want at the quality I want within an hour of a episode/movie being released to streaming. That would seem to indicate that these efforts at DRM are actually failing to have any noticeable effect at…

Yes, DRM are a perfect example of the "Smart Cow" problem [0]. This is so obvious that, as you say (A) it's quite obscure why media companies still bother with DRM? The only beneficiaries of DRM seem to be hardware vendors, and even for them it's unclear if it's a net benefit, since it makes everything more expensive. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_cow_problem

Probably advantage of DRM is that circumvention can be criminalized and absence of DRM implies circumvention.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#28

Post by stackghost »

zb3 wrote: post #22
stackghost wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Normies are who you need to convince if you want to effect social change. If the FSF sticks to their current mission of preaching to the choir, they'll remain about as relevant as they are today, which isn't a lot.

People in power and people with money are who you need to convince..

Eating junk from your toenails on camera doesn't convince those people either.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#29

Post by geerlingguy »

tasn wrote: post #20
jakogut wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's always an analog loophole. Even if the OS is unable to access the memory storing the decrypted data, you could always just plug the output of the machine into a capture card and capture the decrypted stream that way. I suppose some monitors and TVs have "features" to cryptographically handshake with the GPU and ensure a secure link, but at some point the data must be decrypted and decoded to be displayed. Thi…

The end goal is DRM all the way to the screen. No capture cards will be allowed. It's a cat and mouse game, but I wouldn't discount these efforts as a mere speed bump. Screen enforced DRM will make things much harder. A motivated individual with the right tools and hardware hacking know how may be able to jailbreak a screen to record stuff, but that's going to make things out of reach for most people.

With how good modern screens are, and how good cameras are (and how easy both are to hack), you could always play back the video and capture the photons through the air.

There was something called Macrovision back in the VHS/DVD days that tried to defeat digital/analog conversion, and I'm sure visual techniques could be devised...

But I imagine someone with a good OLED and a good mirrorless camera (or even a cell phone nowadays) could make a pretty good 4K replication of any media that displays.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#30

Post by orev »

tasn wrote: post #20
jakogut wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's always an analog loophole. Even if the OS is unable to access the memory storing the decrypted data, you could always just plug the output of the machine into a capture card and capture the decrypted stream that way. I suppose some monitors and TVs have "features" to cryptographically handshake with the GPU and ensure a secure link, but at some point the data must be decrypted and decoded to be displayed. Thi…

The end goal is DRM all the way to the screen. No capture cards will be allowed. It's a cat and mouse game, but I wouldn't discount these efforts as a mere speed bump. Screen enforced DRM will make things much harder. A motivated individual with the right tools and hardware hacking know how may be able to jailbreak a screen to record stuff, but that's going to make things out of reach for most people.

There are many USB capture dongles with chips that ignore DRM, easily available for cheap at popular online stores. Nobody has to go as far as jailbreaking screens.
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