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Glue Work Considered Harmful

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Re: Glue Work Considered Harmful

#21

Post by palata »

neilv wrote: post #15
apwell23 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you have influence on trival stuff like which testing framework to use. In my experience working at many small and medium startups is that most of the impactful decisions are still made by the in-group boysclub. For some reason lots of people seem to have this misconception that startups are somehow more meritocratic than big corporates. I found the opposite to be true. Your job working at startup is to get int…

Exactly. But can we rename it to non-gender-specific "old children's club" or "the cool kids"? :) But seriously, I think probably I need to be technical co-founder, or a trusted first/veryearly hire. Then, as we grow, I'd try to hire rare smart and aligned people, so we can empower them to make decisions without them quickly fudging up the highly effective company that the "old fogies club" started.

> But can we rename it to non-gender-specific "old children's club" or "the cool kids"? :)

I don't really see a need to share that to non-boys; it seems to usually be boysclubs. Never seen that happen with non-boys, at least.

> I think probably I need to be technical co-founder, or a trusted first/veryearly hire.

No, that's not about that. I have been that multiple times, still ended up with a boysclub. You have to be a "cool kid". Like in schools, there is no one rule for that. Sometimes you'll have to be good at sport, sometimes look badass, ...

And then again, if you end up being the leader of the group... maybe you are the one doing to the others what you were trying to avoid. In my experience, those people always genuinely believe they are loved and admired, even if the first thing employees do when they have beers "privately" is complain about how much they hate those leaders.

I guess that's the problem in being in the dominant position: you are biased, because you are in the dominant position.

Re: Glue Work Considered Harmful

#22

Post by catlifeonmars »

apwell23 wrote: post #11
neilv wrote: post #2

This is one reason that I like early startups: I can greatly influence how things are done, so that we have a high level of efficiency, so that we can remain on-mission.

Maybe you have influence on trival stuff like which testing framework to use. In my experience working at many small and medium startups is that most of the impactful decisions are still made by the in-group boysclub. For some reason lots of people seem to have this misconception that startups are somehow more meritocratic than big corporates. I found the opposite to be true. Your job working at startup is to get int…

Meritocratic? No. Anarchic? I think yes to a degree. Your job is to ship, and implementation beats consensus.

Disclaimer: You pay the cost in (a) social capital and (b) tech debt from the occasional shortsighted decision, so use this approach tactfully and judiciously.

Re: Glue Work Considered Harmful

#23

Post by scarface_74 »

darth_avocado wrote: post #13

Glue work doesn’t get rewarded. That I agree with. However I don’t agree with the conclusion. Do Glue Work for projects that you are leading, projects that you are accountable for. As a senior+ engineer that is all your projects. So should you prioritize glue work for all of them? From my experience, there is a delicate balance. There’s Glue work that you need to get right every time, else risk getting fired. E.g. Te…

As a former “architect” and now a “staff” engineer who is pulled in a million directions, I purposefully don’t pull any stories off the board or assign myself to any work in the critical path of getting something to production. Either I will miss my commitments or working extra hours when everyone else is off of work to get time to do “deep work”.

I will do “glue work” that’s important. But not urgent that I can squeeze in between my other obligations without blocking anyone.

I need to make sure I am “working at my level”. But I don’t need to constantly be worried about promotions.

Re: Glue Work Considered Harmful

#24

Post by scarface_74 »

apwell23 wrote: post #11
neilv wrote: post #2

This is one reason that I like early startups: I can greatly influence how things are done, so that we have a high level of efficiency, so that we can remain on-mission.

Maybe you have influence on trival stuff like which testing framework to use. In my experience working at many small and medium startups is that most of the impactful decisions are still made by the in-group boysclub. For some reason lots of people seem to have this misconception that startups are somehow more meritocratic than big corporates. I found the opposite to be true. Your job working at startup is to get int…

I’ve been recruited specifically as an early strategic hire via my network to set direction either at a startup or by a new to the company CTO or director three times in my career. It’s the sweet spot to guide major decisions and initiatives

Re: Glue Work Considered Harmful

#25

Post by neilv »

palata wrote: post #21
neilv wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. But can we rename it to non-gender-specific "old children's club" or "the cool kids"? :) But seriously, I think probably I need to be technical co-founder, or a trusted first/veryearly hire. Then, as we grow, I'd try to hire rare smart and aligned people, so we can empower them to make decisions without them quickly fudging up the highly effective company that the "old fogies club" started.

> But can we rename it to non-gender-specific "old children's club" or "the cool kids"? :) I don't really see a need to share that to non-boys; it seems to usually be boysclubs. Never seen that happen with non-boys, at least. > I think probably I need to be technical co-founder, or a trusted first/veryearly hire. No, that's not about that. I have been that multiple times, still ended up with a boysclub. You have to b…

> And then again, if you end up being the leader of the group... maybe you are the one doing to the others what you were trying to avoid. In my experience, those people always genuinely believe they are loved and admired, even if the first thing employees do when they have beers "privately" is complain about how much they hate those leaders.

I don't have enough data points, but I suspect that trying to nurture honest communication and trust can help you avoid this outcome. (I've been blessed to have had a few managers who I'd still trust to be honest and smart, and to look out for me as an employee/person.)

Though, I suppose you can still do months/years of trust-building and working together well, and then one day you invoke your authority, to make a call that people really don't understand/agree with. Maybe you spoiled the trust so much, that, in one minute, people revert to the default dynamic that they learned all through schooling and at other jobs: tiptoeing around someone who is in authority. Then they stop giving you candid feedback, so you diverge more, and then their outlet is to complain about you.

Re: Glue Work Considered Harmful

#26

Post by cyrnel »

This seems to start from the strange assumption that companies have a clear and correct understanding of what things to prioritize, and then concludes that deprioritizing glue work is actually smart.

Historically, companies really don't know what they are doing, especially on issues like this. Glue work often encompasses tasks viewed as feminine and its de-emphasis hurts women's careers (and men who happen to focus in glue work too): https://medium.com/@granellacamila/a-few-months-ago-i-discov...

> In a study published by the American Economy Review, the researchers discovered that women volunteered more than men for tasks considered glue work, hence, less promotable tasks in general. However, the researchers have also found that men waited longer to volunteer for tasks when there were women on the team. Furthermore, women were more volunteered by managers or colleagues than men. These kinds of tasks have a direct impact on women’s career development through time.

It took two world wars for some companies to get over their biases and actually let women join the workforce. It's no surprise then that companies would continue to devalue glue work, even if it hurts their bottom line.

Re: Glue Work Considered Harmful

#27

Post by dhosek »

scarface_74 wrote: post #23
darth_avocado wrote: post #13

Glue work doesn’t get rewarded. That I agree with. However I don’t agree with the conclusion. Do Glue Work for projects that you are leading, projects that you are accountable for. As a senior+ engineer that is all your projects. So should you prioritize glue work for all of them? From my experience, there is a delicate balance. There’s Glue work that you need to get right every time, else risk getting fired. E.g. Te…

As a former “architect” and now a “staff” engineer who is pulled in a million directions, I purposefully don’t pull any stories off the board or assign myself to any work in the critical path of getting something to production. Either I will miss my commitments or working extra hours when everyone else is off of work to get time to do “deep work”. I will do “glue work” that’s important. But not urgent that I can sque…

I think at the staff level, the key is to focus on multiplying the efforts of the team at the expense of your own individual productivity.

Re: Glue Work Considered Harmful

#28

Post by [deleted] »

cyrnel wrote: post #26

This seems to start from the strange assumption that companies have a clear and correct understanding of what things to prioritize, and then concludes that deprioritizing glue work is actually smart. Historically, companies really don't know what they are doing, especially on issues like this. Glue work often encompasses tasks viewed as feminine and its de-emphasis hurts women's careers (and men who happen to focus i…

[deleted]

Re: Glue Work Considered Harmful

#29

Post by bdndndndbve »

apwell23 wrote: post #11
neilv wrote: post #2

This is one reason that I like early startups: I can greatly influence how things are done, so that we have a high level of efficiency, so that we can remain on-mission.

Maybe you have influence on trival stuff like which testing framework to use. In my experience working at many small and medium startups is that most of the impactful decisions are still made by the in-group boysclub. For some reason lots of people seem to have this misconception that startups are somehow more meritocratic than big corporates. I found the opposite to be true. Your job working at startup is to get int…

> Your job working at startup is to get into that group and be one of the boys.

First step: be a man.

No but seriously in my experience this is a pre-requisite.

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