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The Riddle of Luigi Mangione

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Re: The Riddle of Luigi Mangione

#21

Post by pacbard »

isoprophlex wrote: post #4

The article seems quite level-headed and thoughtful. That said, this jumps the gun: > The idea that trauma is passed down epigenetically is not only unscientific, it’s also un-agentic; if you believe your trauma is hardwired into your DNA, you’re prone to passively accept it rather than actively trying to overcome it. Recent research is pretty convincing that the "folk wisdom" of trauma being passed down to later gen…

I'll take the bait.

It seems to me that going from "F1 and F2 generations of mice respond differently to the smell of acetophenone if their parents were exposed to it" to "well, human trauma is inherited and there isn't anything we can do about violent behavior" is somewhat far-fetched and smells like neo-eugenics.

Re: The Riddle of Luigi Mangione

#22

Post by thrance »

> Vigilantism is always wrong. If you celebrate someone gunning down a defenceless person in the street, then you advocate for a world in which this is an acceptable thing for anyone to do.

I somewhat disagree, our democracies were built on violent, illegal revolutions. Vigilantism is not always wrong.

> I told him about my favorite philosophy, Stoicism, and how it could teach him to ignore distractions and focus his mind on living more deliberately.

It's funny how many of these online libertarian-ish guys preach "stoicism", a philosophy which famously asks you to be satisfied occupying your "natural" place in the universe, be it slave or Emperor or the Roman Empire.

Ultimately, I think this culture of "agentism" pushes some to a particular brand of individualism, in which it may seem that history is written by great men, heroes, who take actions in their own hands.

Re: The Riddle of Luigi Mangione

#23

Post by hellotheretoday »

n4r9 wrote: post #8

> when I asked him if he was voting in the presidential election, he scrunched his nose and said he wasn’t crazy about Trump or Biden, but liked some of the things RFK Jr. was saying. I regard RFK Jr. as a crank who regularly pushes harmful pseudoscience, but I didn’t mention it so as not to derail the conversation. Interesting! I agrees he's a crank, but RFK jr seems to appeal to a specific personality type that's c…

Conspiracy theorist contrarian

Re: The Riddle of Luigi Mangione

#24

Post by BitterCritter »

It makes me livid when people write that vigilantism is never right. It speaks volumes about how little nuance there is in their own lives. I think these same people would denounce civil disobedience in the time of the civil rights movement and would joke about Seneca Falls if they were born a century younger. The overconfidence disgusts me.

Re: The Riddle of Luigi Mangione

#25

Post by politelemon »

benreesman wrote: post #3

Vigilantism and violence is not merited because scope remains for negotiation and compromise and peaceful resolution. At some level of oppression violence is obviously indicated. The whole of the current Western order is premised on that. At some point it’s too far. Today is not that day.

The 'point' differs among individuals. In turn it is dependent on their circumstances and ideals. There isn't one specific moment where there will be collective agreement on its justification.

Re: The Riddle of Luigi Mangione

#26

Post by tptacek »

stavros wrote: post #5
benreesman wrote: post #3

Vigilantism and violence is not merited because scope remains for negotiation and compromise and peaceful resolution. At some level of oppression violence is obviously indicated. The whole of the current Western order is premised on that. At some point it’s too far. Today is not that day.

> scope remains for negotiation and compromise and peaceful resolution I feel like the murderer wouldn't be so widely commended if that were true. Justice is what is supposed to prevent vigilantism, and apparently lots of people here felt that the murder was just.

It was not widely commended; that it looks that way is an artifact of how our media is structured. We tend now to look at the world through a band-stop filter that amplifies the most activating ideas.

Re: The Riddle of Luigi Mangione

#27

Post by thrance »

janice1999 wrote: post #19
isoprophlex wrote: post #4

The article seems quite level-headed and thoughtful. That said, this jumps the gun: > The idea that trauma is passed down epigenetically is not only unscientific, it’s also un-agentic; if you believe your trauma is hardwired into your DNA, you’re prone to passively accept it rather than actively trying to overcome it. Recent research is pretty convincing that the "folk wisdom" of trauma being passed down to later gen…

There have been multiple studies on the descendants of Holocaust survivors looking at exactly this btw. "Descendants of Holocaust Survivors Have Altered Stress Hormones": https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/descendants-of-ho...

I would think surviving absolute horror would shape the education one would give to their children. Why is it necessarily epigenetic?

Re: The Riddle of Luigi Mangione

#28

Post by jnwatson »

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #7

So this guy had a few twitter exchanges with Luigi and he thinks the US healthcare system isn't that bad? Doesn't really seem like an article for HN. But as long as we're here I think, sort of like Luigi, I'll let other people argue about whether the US healthcare system functions well or efficiently. But as for this: >While it’s true that UnitedHealthcare has the highest denial rate for medical claims, the CEO doesn…

One of the author's points was that if United took no profit, it could only very slightly increase services. The only ethical thing that Thompson could have done is advocated for the dissolution of his and his competitors' firms, which would have had him out of a job quickly.

The actual problem is the system where United exists at all. Health insurance provides exceedingly little value for a very high cost.

One issue now is that being in the way of healthcare is now so large as to have its own gravity. Just healthcare administration (no caregiving or treatment) is now about 2% of GDP itself. Restructuring healthcare would mean tens of thousands out of a job.

Re: The Riddle of Luigi Mangione

#29

Post by tptacek »

asdefghyk wrote: post #15

Google reveals the CEO who died and other United Healthcare executive's are being investigated for insider trading, enriching themselves by many millions. (And conversely, others must have lost millions. ) Also being investigated for fraud.( I thought this may be possible cause for murder, but it appears not. )

We don't have to retcon subtle rationales onto the murder; the guy wrote a manifesto. It was bad, and dumb, as writers from both ends of the political spectrum and points between have observed.

Re: The Riddle of Luigi Mangione

#30

Post by isoprophlex »

pacbard wrote: post #21
isoprophlex wrote: post #4

The article seems quite level-headed and thoughtful. That said, this jumps the gun: > The idea that trauma is passed down epigenetically is not only unscientific, it’s also un-agentic; if you believe your trauma is hardwired into your DNA, you’re prone to passively accept it rather than actively trying to overcome it. Recent research is pretty convincing that the "folk wisdom" of trauma being passed down to later gen…

I'll take the bait. It seems to me that going from "F1 and F2 generations of mice respond differently to the smell of acetophenone if their parents were exposed to it" to "well, human trauma is inherited and there isn't anything we can do about violent behavior" is somewhat far-fetched and smells like neo-eugenics.

If the bait wasn't too traumatizing, could I interest you in a dessert? No acetophenone flavor, I promise.

> In summary, we have begun to explore an under-appreciated influence on adult behavior—ancestral experience before conception. From a translational perspective, our results allow us to appreciate how the experiences of a parent, before even conceiving offspring, markedly influence both structure and function in the nervous system of subsequent generations. Such a phenomenon may contribute to the etiology and potential intergenerational transmission of risk for neuropsychiatric disorders, such as phobias, anxiety, and post-traumatic stress disorder. To conclude, we interpret these results as highlighting how generations can inherit information about the salience of specific stimuli in ancestral environments so that their behavior and neuroanatomy are altered to allow for appropriate stimulus-specific responses.

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