Why Our Elites Stink • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Our Elites Stink

#21

Post by lindowe » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 5:06 PM UTC

rubashov wrote: post #12

lindowe wrote: post #9

I would love to know by what metric 1950s & 60s elites were 'better'. Brook's seems to be ignoring the fact that elites in these times were more effective because they could ignore other interest groups. It's easy to get a highway built when you can override the largely poor or minority groups who live in these areas (i.e. Robert Moses). Also the widespread lack of transparency meant that the crimes of elites were fa…

Fair point on the disastrous social engineering and urban redevelopment schemes of the 20th century. But, what about sending men to the moon or designing and building the sr-71 in a few years? Or for that matter conquering Japan and Germany in the space of a few years. I argue these are all things our society today would simply not be able to do if placed in the same circumstances. We are less effective.

You raise the interesting point of 'Great Projects'. I'm sympathetic with the desire for a new space program, but I think it has less to do with a lack of vision and more to do with competing visions. NASA has a harder time raising money in the government because they have to compete against a multitude of other causes and agencies, who rightly point out that money put towards a trip to mars is money thats not going to social welfare programs, infrastructure, or other, more tangible goods. We went to the moon because there was an overwhelming desire to 'beat' the soviets; if a similar desire competitor existed today, I imagine a similar effort. As for winning WWII, its the same basic point that at that time there was an obvious single good to be pursued, winning the war, whereas now there are many different goods. This isn't the fault of our elites or our efficiency, it just points to the fact that we live in a pluralistic society. It would be better to embrace that, and devolve more power to civil society, than to continue to pine for elites who can overcome opposition.

Re: Why Our Elites Stink

#22

Post by anamax » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 5:06 PM UTC

majormajor wrote: post #10

ritchiea wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that he's nostalgic and full of shit but you're putting words in his mouth when you say the problem is "those who rise to power do so with the personal story that they earned it." Brooks is arguing that they DID earn it, he says the mechanisms that put people at the top tend to be honest and that people at the top work more than others. What he's saying when he's being nostalgic is that the old people at the…

Yes, he asks if we would say government is working better now than 60 years ago, and given (just for starters) the huge difference in opportunities available for women and minorities, I'm not seeing why I shouldn't say that. The whole thing rests on a premise that, in some vague and mostly-unspecified way, "things used to be better," or at least "people used to think things were better." But this doesn't seem backed…

> Personally, my hunch is that we simply have quicker/more effective means of disseminating information about corruption now.

Corruption matters more now.

When govt is only 3% of GDP and has little regulatory power, corruption can't affect much.

Re: Why Our Elites Stink

#23

Post by brown9-2 » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 5:08 PM UTC

bwanab wrote: post #16

brown9-2 wrote: post #3

Here is an excerpt of Chris Hayes' book for anyone interested: http://www.thenation.com/article/168265/why-elites-fail I think David Brooks is over-summarizing Hayes' thesis and also making it sound like he is interested in violent overthrow of "the elites" by comparing him to the French Revolution.

Thanks for that. Hayes' actual arguments are much more subtle and thoughtful than Brooks gives them credit for.

That seems to be true for any subject Brooks writes about.

Re: Why Our Elites Stink

#24

Post by brown9-2 » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 5:09 PM UTC

lindowe wrote: post #9

I would love to know by what metric 1950s & 60s elites were 'better'. Brook's seems to be ignoring the fact that elites in these times were more effective because they could ignore other interest groups. It's easy to get a highway built when you can override the largely poor or minority groups who live in these areas (i.e. Robert Moses). Also the widespread lack of transparency meant that the crimes of elites were fa…

I would love to know by what metric 1950s & 60s elites were 'better'. Brook's seems to be ignoring the fact that elites in these times were more effective because they could ignore other interest groups.

He's not basing it on any metric.

His sentiment can be chalked up completely to the nostalgia that all people feel for the era of their childhood. Everyone always thinks that "things were better" during the time when they were growing up - because they were too young to understand what things were like for adults in that time. The time periods of our youth always seem better than today.

Re: Why Our Elites Stink

#25

Post by brown9-2 » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 5:11 PM UTC

rubashov wrote: post #12

lindowe wrote: post #9

I would love to know by what metric 1950s & 60s elites were 'better'. Brook's seems to be ignoring the fact that elites in these times were more effective because they could ignore other interest groups. It's easy to get a highway built when you can override the largely poor or minority groups who live in these areas (i.e. Robert Moses). Also the widespread lack of transparency meant that the crimes of elites were fa…

Fair point on the disastrous social engineering and urban redevelopment schemes of the 20th century. But, what about sending men to the moon or designing and building the sr-71 in a few years? Or for that matter conquering Japan and Germany in the space of a few years. I argue these are all things our society today would simply not be able to do if placed in the same circumstances. We are less effective.

I argue these are all things our society today would simply not be able to do if placed in the same circumstances. We are less effective.

What is this based on? Our society today is still capable of great accomplishments - look at what Google has built in 10 years, the amount of knowledge organized there.

I would argue that we seem to be able to accomplish less because as a society our ambitions are smaller. Large government programs get nowhere today because everyone fears socialism.

Re: Why Our Elites Stink

#26

Post by gwern » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 5:11 PM UTC

rubashov wrote: post #19

drumdance wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but they cared very much whether you were Jewish, black or female. And they still care if your parents went to school there.

On black and Jewish I'm not going to take your point as granted. I'd need an unbiased analysis.

Instead of being lazy, why don't you google the question? Even a simple query like 'jewish discrimination college' will give you materials to work with, ranging from US immigration policy restricting Eastern Europeans to the SAT being devised for reducing Jewish enrollment in elite universities, and if you go far enough afield, you will find gems like the 'Jewish questions' (compiled in a paper on ArXiv) that Soviet Russia used to block any but the very most brilliant Jewish mathematics students from higher education.

Re: Why Our Elites Stink

#27

Post by MaysonL » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 5:13 PM UTC

rubashov wrote: post #19

drumdance wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but they cared very much whether you were Jewish, black or female. And they still care if your parents went to school there.

On black and Jewish I'm not going to take your point as granted. I'd need an unbiased analysis.

Then your knowledge of American history is sorely lacking.

Re: Why Our Elites Stink

#28

Post by majormajor » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 5:13 PM UTC

ericd wrote: post #17

majormajor wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, he asks if we would say government is working better now than 60 years ago, and given (just for starters) the huge difference in opportunities available for women and minorities, I'm not seeing why I shouldn't say that. The whole thing rests on a premise that, in some vague and mostly-unspecified way, "things used to be better," or at least "people used to think things were better." But this doesn't seem backed…

There are a many, many more axes for government performance than just equality of opportunity for people under it, though. Simply comparing the reaction of the government to the recent financial crisis to the past reactions makes it easy to see that something has been lost. In previous financial crises, significant regulations were brought to bear to patch the bugs. This time, despite some extremely significant struc…

I agree that more should be done with regard to the financial crisis and corruption, but I'm also very skeptical of comparisons made in the middle of it, trying to answer the question of "how did the government perform during it" before the final outcome is known. I realize that that's an unsatisfactory answer in many ways, but government often moves slowly and I'm not sure that's a bad thing—i.e., I don't want the outcome of this whole mess to be the TSA of the financial industry.

Re: Why Our Elites Stink

#29

Post by bediger4000 » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 5:17 PM UTC

freyr wrote: post #14

The current system favors easily quantifiable performance metrics (GPA, SAT, ranking of degree-granting academic institution) and social networking. We end up with socially-adept individuals who look good on paper running the show. As we have seen in some stunning recent displays, individuals can rise within this system and succeed despite an off-kilter moral compass or a sense of purpose beyond their own personal ga…

I like your answer, and maybe, just maybe, that's what Brooks wanted to say. I also agree that "Brooks doesn't justify it coherently". But that's because you're making the distinction that Brooks did not.

Please take over Brooks position as editorial writer.

Re: Why Our Elites Stink

#30

Post by macspoofing » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 5:18 PM UTC

moron wrote: post #4

As far as whether Wall Street is working better than it used to, depends who you ask. But, really, this talk of "elites" tends to put me on edge, because a lot of times it's really about who you define as the elite. I came of age politically at the time when anybody to the left of Rush Limbaugh was an effete "latte liberal", and the word "elite" basically referred to anyone who had a college degree and saw through th…

The article defined "elites".