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The success and failure of Ninja (2020)

neugierig.org

21–30 of 85 posts

Re: The success and failure of Ninja (2020)

#21

I switched to samurai for the few things I have that still used ninja; it's an improvement in every possible way. But regardless, I think those kinds of build systems are just wrong. What I want from a build system is to hash the content of all the transitive inputs and look up if it exists or not in a registry.

You might be interested in n2, from the author of ninja.

Re: The success and failure of Ninja (2020)

#22
post #7

### Statistics ### ninja has ~26 kloc, ~3,100 commits, and only a quarter of them by the original author (although by loc changed their weight is higher). Interesting! https://github.com/ninja-build/ninja/graphs/contributors ### Bunch of other comments ### > users of ninja ... all Meson projects, which appears to increasingly be the build system used in the free software world; So, AFAICT, that hasn't turned out to b…

Im going to have to give your CUDA wrapper a look later. :)

I should say that unlike the author of ninja though, I am _very_ interested in user complaints and criticism, even if its not fully articulated and respectful. I _need_ contradiction and opposition to go beyond the bounds of my own conceptions as a almost-always-sole developer and sole maintainer of the library. I may not accept/agree with everything, but I'll at least know to take the concerns into consideration. And I've already refactored quite a bit over the years based on use cases user have pointed out to me.

Re: The success and failure of Ninja (2020)

#24
> Relatedly, please forgive me for the embarrassing name.

The name is great!

PS. It's possible to make it even faster if we implement this: https://github.com/ninja-build/ninja/issues/2157 But you explained in the article that the tool intentionally lacks state, even tiny hints from previous runs.

Re: The success and failure of Ninja (2020)

#25
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Im going to have to give your CUDA wrapper a look later. :)

I should say that unlike the author of ninja though, I am _very_ interested in user complaints and criticism, even if its not fully articulated and respectful. I _need_ contradiction and opposition to go beyond the bounds of my own conceptions as a almost-always-sole developer and sole maintainer of the library. I may not accept/agree with everything, but I'll at least know to take the concerns into consideration. An…

Same :) I started down the rabbit hole of abstracting CUDA for our robotics framework, but it’s not really something I want to maintain right now.

Re: The success and failure of Ninja (2020)

#26
> I also believe that programmers feel latency and it affects their mood even if they don't notice it. (Google has recently done some research in this area that kinda confirmed my belief, here's hoping they'll publish it publicly!)

Anyone knows if it happened? Has the google research on latency been published?

Re: The success and failure of Ninja (2020)

#27

> we talk about programming like it is about writing code, but the code ends up being less important than the architecture, and the architecture ends up being less important than social issues. A thousand times this! This puts into words something that's been lurking in the back of my mind for a very long time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway's_law > Organizations which design systems (in the broad sense used here) are constrained to produce designs which are copies of the communication structures of these organizations. — Melvin E. Conway, How Do Committees Invent?

Source code repos could have USER.md and DEVELOPER.md files to record social context.

Re: The success and failure of Ninja (2020)

#28

> I also believe that programmers feel latency and it affects their mood even if they don't notice it. (Google has recently done some research in this area that kinda confirmed my belief, here's hoping they'll publish it publicly!) Anyone knows if it happened? Has the google research on latency been published?

Not sure if it's the exact research that the author is referring to, but it could be this one: https://www.computer.org/csdl/magazine/so/2023/04/10176199/1...

Re: The success and failure of Ninja (2020)

#29

I switched to samurai for the few things I have that still used ninja; it's an improvement in every possible way. But regardless, I think those kinds of build systems are just wrong. What I want from a build system is to hash the content of all the transitive inputs and look up if it exists or not in a registry.

What’s better about Samurai? I thought it was a compatible subset of ninja

Also, “not the thing I wanted” doesn’t mean “wrong”, simply because there are other people in the world with different preferences

Re: The success and failure of Ninja (2020)

#30
post #9

I thought this was going to be about people buying less air fryers.

I thought of the smoothie blenders first too, but I can't see how they would ever have failed given how great they are. My life has changed since buying the first such blender about 4 months ago

Oh don’t call the Ninja a blender - there is a giant thread on one of the main FB groups. OP is getting ripped
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