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Taxing unrealized gains has caused an entrepreneurial exodus in Norway

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Re: Taxing unrealized gains has caused an entrepreneurial exodus in Norway

#21
post #8

Not surprising that an Atlas Shrugged reading entrepreneur dislikes taxation. But government services cost money, and by other accounts [0] Norway are doing pretty well: Norway performs well in many dimensions of well-being relative to other countries in the Better Life Index. Norway outperforms the average in jobs, work-life balance, education, health, environmental quality, social connections, civic engagement, saf…

For a small country with that much oil money, "better than average" is a pretty low standard.

Re: Taxing unrealized gains has caused an entrepreneurial exodus in Norway

#23

> This creates a perverse scenario where business owners must extract dividends or sell shares every year just to cover their tax bill. With dividend and capital gains taxes at around 38%, you need to withdraw approximately 1.6 million NOK to pay a 1 million NOK wealth tax bill. Why wouldn't you just take a loan against the assets? A few percent of interest is a lot cheaper than 38%. In Canada you used to have to pay…

And how would they pay back a loan?

Re: Taxing unrealized gains has caused an entrepreneurial exodus in Norway

#24
Here's a thought: as long as some countries somewhere have enough freedom to innovate, and entrepreneurs can leave their countries and get to the freer ones, countries like Norway can piggyback off all the innovation from others (or outsource it). I think it would only be a problem if for some reason there was technology that couldn't be copied.

Re: Taxing unrealized gains has caused an entrepreneurial exodus in Norway

#25
This is a bad solution to taxation. It brakes the long-established tax practice of "realization principle".

Suppose the same principle was applied to a home owner. At the end of each year your property is evaluated and you're taxed on the difference between last and this years price. You own an asset and this asset is valued by the rating agency as more expensive than before. Now you have a liability that you need to pay and if you don't you'll be in big trouble, because you owe the money to the government.

So independently of your own actions & impossible to predict you will need to plan for this expense. How many homeowners and rentiers would like that?

The "realization principle" in tax law specifies that income is not subject to tax until it is "realized" through a taxable event, such as the sale or exchange of an asset. In the US this was established in early 20th-century U.S. Supreme Court cases such as Eisner v. Macomber (1920). In this case it was established that mere appreciation in value does not constitute taxable income until a sale or exchange occurs.

Europe is not very business friendly. This regulation will make creating businesses even harder. When governments need more revenue they need to create more opportunities to create that revenue, not squeeze the current business tighter and tighter. Startups are risky, adding additional risk would just kill more of them sooner.

BTW, it's easy to fix "loan against my equity" evasion by classifying the "money has been loaned" as a "realization" event.

Re: Taxing unrealized gains has caused an entrepreneurial exodus in Norway

#26
Norway doesn't care. It is a country with a reputation for good governance and northern-European economic strength. But economically, it is a country that is largely a gas station: like a democratic Russia with more competent governance.

Over half its economy is based on oil and mining. It has failed to develop meaningful economic diversification, and, because it has wisely banked so much of the proceeds of its oil (over US$300k per capita), there's not a lot of pressure to adapt.

Norway will not be a center of innovation anytime soon, except in oil-related fields. Eventually, as oil gets replaced as a source of energy, they may feel more pressure to change. But for now, they suffer from a more sophisticated version of the resource curse.

Sweden is an interesting counterexample, which has a lower GDP per capita but a much more diversified economy. Sweden abolished a wealth tax they used to have almost 20 years ago.

Re: Taxing unrealized gains has caused an entrepreneurial exodus in Norway

#27

This is a bad solution to taxation. It brakes the long-established tax practice of "realization principle". Suppose the same principle was applied to a home owner. At the end of each year your property is evaluated and you're taxed on the difference between last and this years price. You own an asset and this asset is valued by the rating agency as more expensive than before. Now you have a liability that you need to…

The other thing is what happens when the notional value goes down a year later? Do they get a tax refund?

Re: Taxing unrealized gains has caused an entrepreneurial exodus in Norway

#28
post #8

Not surprising that an Atlas Shrugged reading entrepreneur dislikes taxation. But government services cost money, and by other accounts [0] Norway are doing pretty well: Norway performs well in many dimensions of well-being relative to other countries in the Better Life Index. Norway outperforms the average in jobs, work-life balance, education, health, environmental quality, social connections, civic engagement, saf…

I have lived in Norway for a year and it’s definitely not as bright as you’re painting it.

Rent prices are extremely high and apartments are quite small compared to other European cities.

Alcohol is so expensive, that Norwegians go on alcohol shopping tours to Sweden.

Trains in Oslo don’t run 24 hours, so you have to take long detours with busses at night or pay obnoxiously high rates when taking a cab.

No, Norway is definitely not the paradise you’re trying to make it.

Also, these people that left Norway weren’t against paying taxes. They were against the socialist government trying to rip them off with a completely unfair taxation.

Re: Taxing unrealized gains has caused an entrepreneurial exodus in Norway

#29
post #8

Not surprising that an Atlas Shrugged reading entrepreneur dislikes taxation. But government services cost money, and by other accounts [0] Norway are doing pretty well: Norway performs well in many dimensions of well-being relative to other countries in the Better Life Index. Norway outperforms the average in jobs, work-life balance, education, health, environmental quality, social connections, civic engagement, saf…

Does Norway perform well in various well-being metrics essentially because Norway is extremely oil rich? (I don't pretend to know the answer, and ask because I don't see how to figure that out)

Yes, they're just a petrostate. Over half their economy is oil and mining.

Re: Taxing unrealized gains has caused an entrepreneurial exodus in Norway

#30
post #18
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do realise they were taxing the entrepreneurs before their companies made a profit? What sort of "justice" is that?

> Norway imposes a wealth tax that taxes unrealized gains at approximately 1% annually. Calculated on the full market value for publicly traded assets and the book value of private companies. On New Year's Eve, whatever your net worth - including illiquid assets - is subject to this tax. It doesn't matter if you're running a loss-making startup with no cash flow, if your investments have tanked after the valuation da…

Do they give a tax refund if the assets then lose (notional) value the next year?
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