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Does Amazon S3 really save money?

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Re: Does Amazon S3 really save money?

#21
Hey there, I'm the CEO & Chief Geek at SmugMug. You're overlooking a few things:

- Amazon keeps at least 3 copies of your data (which is what you need for high reliability) in at least 2 different geographical locations. That's what we'd do ourselves, too, if we continued to use our own storage internally. So your math is off both on the storage costs and then the costs of maintaing two or more datacenters and the networks between them.

- When Amazon reduces their prices, you instantly get all your storage cheaper. This isn't something you get with your capital expenditure of disks - your costs are always fixed. This has upsides and downsides, but you certainly don't get instant price breaks to your OpEx costs. When they added cheaper, tiered storage, our bill with Amazon dropped hugely.

- There's built-in price pressure with Amazon, too. The cost of one month's rent is roughly the same as the cost of leaving. So if it gets too expensive (or unreliable or slow or whatever your metrics are), you can easily leave. And Amazon has incentive to keep lowering prices and improving speed & reliability to ensure you don't leave.

- CapEx sucks. It's hard on your cashflow, it's hard on your debt position if you need to lease or finance (we don't, but that just means it's even harder on our cashflow), it's hard on taxes (amortization sucks), etc etc. I vastly prefer reasonable OpEx costs, with no debt load, which is what Amazon gets us.

- Free data transfer in/out of EC2 can be a big win, too. It is for us, anyway.

- Our biggest win is simply that it's easy. We have a simpler architecture, a lot less people, and a lot less worry. We get to focus on our product (sharing photos) rather than the necessary evils of doing so (managing storage). We have two ops guys for a Top 500 website with over a petabyte of storage. That's pretty awesome.

Hope that helps!

Re: Does Amazon S3 really save money?

#22
That Amazon S3 is cheaper than traditional dedicated servers is a myth that's been spreading for a while now.

You can argue all you want about how reliable and convenient it is. But it's not cheaper. In fact, it can be very expensive especially as you consume more bandwidth and storage.

Re: Does Amazon S3 really save money?

#23

Hey there, I'm the CEO & Chief Geek at SmugMug. You're overlooking a few things: - Amazon keeps at least 3 copies of your data (which is what you need for high reliability) in at least 2 different geographical locations. That's what we'd do ourselves, too, if we continued to use our own storage internally. So your math is off both on the storage costs and then the costs of maintaing two or more datacenters and the ne…

Great rationale, and it has served you well. I am a happy smugmug user.

I have a question about data security. If I wanted the data to be safe (in terms of intellectual property and corporate secrets), what do folks here think about using S3 and EC2? I really like the flexibility of using Amazon instead of buying servers for internal corporate data processing... but is secrecy a good enough reason to keep everything inside one's own firewall? (I suppose one could encrypt a whole TB of storage)

Re: Does Amazon S3 really save money?

#24
post #17

You forget management costs -- someone has to deal with this storage, service the computers, replace the drives, add them, add additional computers, etc.

Indeed. If your business relies on keeping 1TB of data alive, you're going to have dedicated staff keeping an eye on it.

So now, you're looking at ~$2k hardware + $150k salary for your dedicated box watcher.

Compare that to $3k for S3 where it's their problem to keep your stuff backed up and deal with hardware problems.

It's a no-brainer if you ask me.

Re: Does Amazon S3 really save money?

#25
post #19

SmugMug's cheapest plan is $40/year, which is $3.33 a month S3's most expensive tier is $0.15gb/mo So, not counting bandwidth, a user would have to store roughly 22GB of images to eat up that cost. Being conservative, a high-res JPEG out of camera (12mp) is probably 3mb on average. So, we're talking about over 7,000 images.

FYI, most people using high-res DLSR's are storing data in .raw format, instead of a lossy (jpeg) format. My 12.8MP Canon EOS5D produces .RAW files of around 13MB each. I don't store in .jpg, but generally post-process a jpg thumbnail and mid-size image to make browsing my photo catalog easier (or for emailing samples). Edits to pics are always saved as a sub-rev, so it's not uncommon for all the files associated wit…

I'm fully aware of the raw file aspect (I shoot professionally with various gear, including a 5D). I didn't consider it in my calculations for two reasons:

- SmugMug doesn't include it RAW file storage as part of the their accouts. You have to pay extra for it: http://www.smugmug.com/help/smugvault

- Most pro photogs are using services like SM after first editing their raw files locally (in Aperture, Lightroom, etc.) and then exporting high-res JPEGs.

Re: Does Amazon S3 really save money?

#26
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FYI, most people using high-res DLSR's are storing data in .raw format, instead of a lossy (jpeg) format. My 12.8MP Canon EOS5D produces .RAW files of around 13MB each. I don't store in .jpg, but generally post-process a jpg thumbnail and mid-size image to make browsing my photo catalog easier (or for emailing samples). Edits to pics are always saved as a sub-rev, so it's not uncommon for all the files associated wit…

I'm fully aware of the raw file aspect (I shoot professionally with various gear, including a 5D). I didn't consider it in my calculations for two reasons: - SmugMug doesn't include it RAW file storage as part of the their accouts. You have to pay extra for it: http://www.smugmug.com/help/smugvault - Most pro photogs are using services like SM after first editing their raw files locally (in Aperture, Lightroom, etc.)…

I have a 5d and use flickr, where I typically upload jpegs at full res and the highest quality settings. It's not uncommon for me to run into flickr's 10 meg limit. I'd say the average jpeg size that I upload there is more like 7 mb.

Re: Does Amazon S3 really save money?

#27

Hey there, I'm the CEO & Chief Geek at SmugMug. You're overlooking a few things: - Amazon keeps at least 3 copies of your data (which is what you need for high reliability) in at least 2 different geographical locations. That's what we'd do ourselves, too, if we continued to use our own storage internally. So your math is off both on the storage costs and then the costs of maintaing two or more datacenters and the ne…

Great reply. We also heavily use S3, and one nice advantage (although not free) was the recent enabling of their CDN named Cloudfront (http://aws.amazon.com/cloudfront/) helped latency on requests for assests from S3. It was nearly turnkey to enable & benefit from.

Re: Does Amazon S3 really save money?

#28
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm fully aware of the raw file aspect (I shoot professionally with various gear, including a 5D). I didn't consider it in my calculations for two reasons: - SmugMug doesn't include it RAW file storage as part of the their accouts. You have to pay extra for it: http://www.smugmug.com/help/smugvault - Most pro photogs are using services like SM after first editing their raw files locally (in Aperture, Lightroom, etc.)…

I have a 5d and use flickr, where I typically upload jpegs at full res and the highest quality settings. It's not uncommon for me to run into flickr's 10 meg limit. I'd say the average jpeg size that I upload there is more like 7 mb.

I personally haven't seen a lot of 7+mb JPEGs from a 5D but I'm sure it's possible. When I output images from a wedding at level 10, they generally range from 2 to 5mb. My editorial work usually gets exported as tiffs, so those are huge.

I'd consider saving your JPEGs at level 10 in Photoshop (max is 12). It's unlikely you'd ever need or notice the difference. In fact, my print lab specifically requests this.

Re: Does Amazon S3 really save money?

#29

Hey there, I'm the CEO & Chief Geek at SmugMug. You're overlooking a few things: - Amazon keeps at least 3 copies of your data (which is what you need for high reliability) in at least 2 different geographical locations. That's what we'd do ourselves, too, if we continued to use our own storage internally. So your math is off both on the storage costs and then the costs of maintaing two or more datacenters and the ne…

Just curious, do you keep your own backups as well? Do you have any contingency plans for if Amazon's services go down?

I'm not trying to be cynical, but I'd hate to be in the position where Amazon has your business by the balls if something goes wrong. How do you guys deal with this?

Re: Does Amazon S3 really save money?

#30
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a 5d and use flickr, where I typically upload jpegs at full res and the highest quality settings. It's not uncommon for me to run into flickr's 10 meg limit. I'd say the average jpeg size that I upload there is more like 7 mb.

I personally haven't seen a lot of 7+mb JPEGs from a 5D but I'm sure it's possible. When I output images from a wedding at level 10, they generally range from 2 to 5mb. My editorial work usually gets exported as tiffs, so those are huge. I'd consider saving your JPEGs at level 10 in Photoshop (max is 12). It's unlikely you'd ever need or notice the difference. In fact, my print lab specifically requests this.

I do always use 12, in fact I generally crop first before reducing the quality. I probably don't notice the difference, but since flickr rescales to make several copies I always felt that uploading at the highest quality was a good idea.
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