Live data from Hacker News

How the Rich Got Rich

inc.com

21–30 of 121 posts

Re: How the Rich Got Rich

#21
post #11

The huge amount that comes from capital gains got me thinking... why is the return on capital, versus say the return on labor, so high? Our society is awash with capital. We apparently have more of it than we know what to do with (see, e.g., the real estate bubble, the tech bubble). If the capital markets were efficient, shouldn't supply and demand equilibrate things to drive down the price of capital? I think the st…

All the capital gains statistic tells us is that of the top 400 tax payers in 2009 capital gains represented 45.8% of their earnings. These 400 are the winners in the capital market. They're earnings aren't likely to reflect the risk associated with all capital investments. The overall markets shows us that there are a lot of losers and capital losses are common.

Re: How the Rich Got Rich

#22

I remember reading some article about how a private banker had a ultra-high net worth family who wanted to name their latest blind trust, 1066 - as in 1066 - the year in which their family acquired most of their wealth.

The impressive thing there is keeping and growing the wealth for a thousand years. Quite literally the family of William the conqueror did not do that so this family really pulled a trick

Re: How the Rich Got Rich

#23

Their parents mostly.

Hmm .. it would be really interesting to check out, how many of today's billionaires inherited most or part of their wealth and how many made it big starting from modest backgrounds. Any pointers folks?

The tedious way would be to go through the Forbes 400 list and attempt to categorize. Eyeballing the top 20, six are clear mega-inheritances (3x Waltons, 2x Kochs, 1x Mars).

For the rest, it depends on where you want to draw the line for "modest backgrounds". For example, which side does Bill Gates fall on? He's certainly more self-made than Christy Walton, in that he inherited only millions, not billions. But having a multi-million trust fund from your bank-founding grandfather, and a mother who's on several boards of directors, is still considerably above the median in terms of winning the birth lottery (http://philip.greenspun.com/bg/).

Re: How the Rich Got Rich

#24
post #7

The Rockefeller quote is interesting "If your only goal is to become rich, you'll never achieve it." But I've always felt Citizen Kane's was more accurate: "It's easy to make a lot of money, if that's all you want to do is make a lot of money."

Not so sure. I've met enough people whose only wish was to make a lot of money, yet who failed to achieve it. In a competitive environment, you almost certainly have to be ridiculously good at something else (anything from programming, I suppose, to brain surgery to dealmaking to leadership) to make a lot of money.

Also, Rockefeller's quote applies in the sense that, once you make a lot of money, your definition of what "a lot of money" is changes.

Re: How the Rich Got Rich

#25
post #11

The huge amount that comes from capital gains got me thinking... why is the return on capital, versus say the return on labor, so high? Our society is awash with capital. We apparently have more of it than we know what to do with (see, e.g., the real estate bubble, the tech bubble). If the capital markets were efficient, shouldn't supply and demand equilibrate things to drive down the price of capital? I think the st…

I've come to the conclusion that there are two essential commodities in any society. One is Property-- land, financial capital, social connections, reputation. The other is Energy-- talent, ambition, willingness to work hard, vision. Most social and class tensions are centered on the exchange rate between these two, which has historically favored Property except in times of crisis.

The reason societies have typically been pro-Property comes from religious superstition; consider that the concept of private land ownership emerged out of a perversion of ancestor veneration; " will rape your shit for breakfast in the afterlife if you don't honor his descendant's claim to this land". Eventually, these ancestors became legends or gods and those who claimed ancestry became the priests, and the rest (literally) is history. [Note: I'm not saying that all religion was born this way, but only that the desire to corrupt or abuse the religious impulse is as old as dirt.]

If you take a person's percentile-ranking on Property vs. Energy and compare the two, it determines what that person's politics will be-- not in a left/right sense, but in terms of how they view certain social justice questions. People who are Property-heavy (i.e. have a lot of connections and capital but low talent) tend to resist change and want to keep doors closed. People who have more Energy than Property want to shatter barriers and dynamite the doors keeping them out.

The reason it doesn't map easily to left/right politics is that both corporations and government can be corrupted to protect the entrenched (i.e. undeserving, Property-heavy people) so there are a lot of pro-Property types who are superficially liberal. Most HN-types and entrepreneurs, even the libertarians, tend to be pro-Energy. A source of our continuing frustration is that the world is still run (look at who actually makes major funding decisions, a few top incubators aside) by extremely connected people who have lots of Proprety and little Energy/talent.

There's another way to view this, which is more fundamental and equally correct. Property equals Past. Energy equals Future. Sadly, people tend to have more faith in an established (but rapidly becoming irrelevant) past than in an uncertain future.

Re: How the Rich Got Rich

#26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm .. it would be really interesting to check out, how many of today's billionaires inherited most or part of their wealth and how many made it big starting from modest backgrounds. Any pointers folks?

For millionaires (defined as people with >$1MM of capital goods that can be easily reinvested), Capgemini claims that "only 16% of high net-worth individuals inherited their stash"[1]. I'm not sure what the precise definitions are since it's not defined in the article. The Millionaire Next Door claims that 80% of millionaires in the USA are the first generation in their family to be rich.[2] I also did my own researc…

Bill Gates also came from a millionaire-or-richer family, so that'd make 4, if that's the cutoff you're using. (He inherited several million from his grandfather, in a generation-skipping trust fund, although I don't believe he yet had access to that money at the time of founding Microsoft.)

Re: How the Rich Got Rich

#27
post #11

The huge amount that comes from capital gains got me thinking... why is the return on capital, versus say the return on labor, so high? Our society is awash with capital. We apparently have more of it than we know what to do with (see, e.g., the real estate bubble, the tech bubble). If the capital markets were efficient, shouldn't supply and demand equilibrate things to drive down the price of capital? I think the st…

This is a great question. I personally think that the answer is 'we really don't know', but that is a cop out answer, combined with my own ignorance of deep economics.

However I do know that when this question is posed (in various forms), the answers seem to all be rooted in a combination of ideology and differing priorities, some of the arguments are circular, some are based on a set of assumptions, and in various combinations. For a sampling of things i've seen[1]:

* The capital disbursement problem is hard, and that it naturally evolves into this pattern, similar to hubs in a scale-free network. It may look inefficient, but really is the result of maximizing efficiency

* A truly free market would not have this problem, but government regulations create it by favoring some over others.

* Government isn't strict enough, allowing some bad players to accumulate enough money and power to get away with anything and becoming these power nodes.

* Modern economic theory is just not capable of describing reality, because much like early undergrad physics, the theory is simple and nice, but when getting to real issues, actual issues (akin to friction, thermodynamics etc) cause inefficiencies that are hard to fully account for.

* Individual greed and shortsightedness cause people with lots of capital to act in a manner counter to efficient capital investment.

* People with all the capital are morally superior and deserve their position, (various morals at play - from religious to it is earned via hard work)

* It doesn't actually matter, because the high end pulls the bottom up with it, e.g. those pools of capital create jobs directly and indirectly (the latter being such things as creating early demand for products allowing for production to be figured out, eventually lowering price, allowing more production research to lower price more).

I certainly hope people jump in here and expand on all of these, because almost certainly someone here knows more than me about all of them. I think it would be useful for all involved to state their base assumptions, because for some reason, discussions of this topic don't ever seem to examine those, and it would be neat to get to that level once in a while.

[1] Please note, I am not taking a side on any of these, just presenting various arguments as I understand them.

Re: How the Rich Got Rich

#28
post #11

The huge amount that comes from capital gains got me thinking... why is the return on capital, versus say the return on labor, so high? Our society is awash with capital. We apparently have more of it than we know what to do with (see, e.g., the real estate bubble, the tech bubble). If the capital markets were efficient, shouldn't supply and demand equilibrate things to drive down the price of capital? I think the st…

There's risk and there's also inflation embodied in the capital gains. If you invest for 20 years, inflation can be a big percentage of a gain. It gets taxed as capital gains, which is one of the stronger arguments for a lower rate for capital gains than annual income.

(of course, sometimes annual income is ALSO the result of deferred compensation. Say a doctor spends 8 years making $30k/yr when she could have been making $120k, and then starting in year 9 makes $300k/yr for 8 years, then has children and leaves the workforce for 20 years (fairly common for female doctors in pediatrics, which is why there is an undersupply...). That doctor is paying way more total tax than someone with a more stable income.)

Re: How the Rich Got Rich

#29
post #11

The huge amount that comes from capital gains got me thinking... why is the return on capital, versus say the return on labor, so high? Our society is awash with capital. We apparently have more of it than we know what to do with (see, e.g., the real estate bubble, the tech bubble). If the capital markets were efficient, shouldn't supply and demand equilibrate things to drive down the price of capital? I think the st…

Two things: 1) Buying capital is much, much riskier than earning wages. If we suppose people who are good at being capitalists are also approximately as good at earning money, the economic equilibrium will tend toward capital being then much more profitable. Us being "awash" in capital is a red herring; in your garden variety market equilibrium model it's the incentives that matter. The returns are exponential, which…

1) Buying capital is much, much riskier than earning wages.

Not really. I hate this argument.

A person with $20 million who puts $500,000 into a new business is not taking that much risk. He's putting 2.5% of his net worth into it; if it tanks, he'll have other opportunities to do it again.

A person who puts 2000 of his ~3000 effective working hours per year into a job is taking on a lot more risk. He's putting about 67% of his working time in, and if that job tanks (company goes out of business, he gets fired) he can be seriously screwed.

Both deserve to be rewarded, for sure, but this mentality in which monetary investors deserve prima facie higher status than time investors is utterly fucking sickening. It reminds me that some people haven't got that we stopped having royalty more than 2 centuries ago.

Re: How the Rich Got Rich

#30
post #11

The huge amount that comes from capital gains got me thinking... why is the return on capital, versus say the return on labor, so high? Our society is awash with capital. We apparently have more of it than we know what to do with (see, e.g., the real estate bubble, the tech bubble). If the capital markets were efficient, shouldn't supply and demand equilibrate things to drive down the price of capital? I think the st…

> capital. We apparently have more of it than we know what to do with (see, e.g., the real estate bubble, the tech bubble

That tends to happen when the central bank dumps false signals (ie, low interest rates) on the market.

Post reply on HN