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Tell HN: Telegram is most likely doing client side scanning; I quit Telegram

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Re: Tell HN: Telegram is most likely doing client side scanning; I quit Telegram

#21

Post by quyleanh »

Tiberium wrote: post #18
quyleanh wrote: post #12

Talking to "unencrypted", may I ask, by default, for normal chat, all the text, image, video, sticker is uploaded to Telegram server without encryption? Or they are encrypted/hashed/salted but the decryption key is on Telegram side?

It's the latter, there is encryption for everything but of course Telegram has the keys. But I don't think there's information if Telegram stores data encrypted or not.

So we have to trust Telegram just like we trust Apple with iMessage right? Since Apple also has ability to extract information from iCloud backup [1].

Anyway, I don't know why HN crowds tend to aggressive with Telegram. Personally I like it and use it like a social platform.

[1] https://www.reuters.com/article/world/exclusive-apple-droppe...

Re: Tell HN: Telegram is most likely doing client side scanning; I quit Telegram

#22

Post by hu3 »

oskarkk wrote: post #19
hu3 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plus the user experience is, imo, the best in class. The client is open source in C++ which explains why it runs laps around Electron apps: https://github.com/telegramdesktop/tdesktop It's so quick and intuitive. Plus writing interactive bots for it is trivial.

I love many small features of Telegram. Telegram had replies to messages before Messenger, WhatsApp, and probably other similar apps (they said they were "the first" or something). Replies in Telegram are very nice to use. In the chat view, you have this standard floating down-arrow which scrolls to the bottom of the chat when you click. When you see a message which is a reply, and you click the preview of the messag…

> On the desktop client, when you scroll up there is a floating date at the top, when you click it, a calendar appears.

My mind just blew, again. TIL. Thank you!

> you can select some words from the message and reply to them

TIL also! neat.

Re: Tell HN: Telegram is most likely doing client side scanning; I quit Telegram

#23

Post by quyleanh »

Gigachad wrote: post #20
nu11ptr wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the client not open source?

Kinda, not really. It’s different per version of the client. The source on GitHub is usually super out of date and it’s unlikely the distributed version is built off the GitHub source unmodified.

They just did delay pushing the latest version of source code, didn't they? I remember there is a help page which instructs you to compare the source of both GitHub and clients version.

Re: Tell HN: Telegram is most likely doing client side scanning; I quit Telegram

#24

Post by Tiberium »

Gigachad wrote: post #20
nu11ptr wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the client not open source?

Kinda, not really. It’s different per version of the client. The source on GitHub is usually super out of date and it’s unlikely the distributed version is built off the GitHub source unmodified.

The out of date source is mainly for the Android Telegram client, but not that much, it's usually 1-2 minor versions away at max. https://github.com/DrKLO/Telegram

tdesktop one https://github.com/telegramdesktop/tdesktop gets updated directly, not sure about the iOS and macOS ones.

Re: Tell HN: Telegram is most likely doing client side scanning; I quit Telegram

#25

Post by tmottabr »

Tiberium wrote: post #18
quyleanh wrote: post #12

Talking to "unencrypted", may I ask, by default, for normal chat, all the text, image, video, sticker is uploaded to Telegram server without encryption? Or they are encrypted/hashed/salted but the decryption key is on Telegram side?

It's the latter, there is encryption for everything but of course Telegram has the keys. But I don't think there's information if Telegram stores data encrypted or not.

no it is not..

There is E2E encryption for private ono on one conversations, but it is off by default and the option to enable it is buried behind a few screens ans several clicks..

And it is completely unavailable for group chats..

If you want more details, Matthew Green, the famous cryptographer from Johns Hopkins University have reviewed it recently

https://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2024/08/25/telegram...

Re: Tell HN: Telegram is most likely doing client side scanning; I quit Telegram

#26

Post by Buxato »

ac130kz wrote: post #16

I have to flag the post: 1) It is encrypted, if you initiate an encrypted chat, which is not the default. 2) The clients are open source, you can even write your own TUI around the API.

Encrypted chats are not available in all clients of Telegram, like Linux desktop one.

Re: Tell HN: Telegram is most likely doing client side scanning; I quit Telegram

#27

Post by Tiberium »

tmottabr wrote: post #25
Tiberium wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the latter, there is encryption for everything but of course Telegram has the keys. But I don't think there's information if Telegram stores data encrypted or not.

no it is not.. There is E2E encryption for private ono on one conversations, but it is off by default and the option to enable it is buried behind a few screens ans several clicks.. And it is completely unavailable for group chats.. If you want more details, Matthew Green, the famous cryptographer from Johns Hopkins University have reviewed it recently https://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2024/08/25/telegram...

What do you mean "it's not"? We're not talking about E2E encryption specifically, just any encryption. MTProto uses encryption.

Re: Tell HN: Telegram is most likely doing client side scanning; I quit Telegram

#28

Post by tmottabr »

Tiberium wrote: post #27
tmottabr wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no it is not.. There is E2E encryption for private ono on one conversations, but it is off by default and the option to enable it is buried behind a few screens ans several clicks.. And it is completely unavailable for group chats.. If you want more details, Matthew Green, the famous cryptographer from Johns Hopkins University have reviewed it recently https://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2024/08/25/telegram...

What do you mean "it's not"? We're not talking about E2E encryption specifically, just any encryption. MTProto uses encryption.

MTProto is the protocol used for secure chats, that is the name of their E2E encryption..

If you do not enable E2E it will not use MTProto and not have E2E encryption.

And all of this is only available for private chats, none is available for groups chats..

Re: Tell HN: Telegram is most likely doing client side scanning; I quit Telegram

#29

Post by Tiberium »

tmottabr wrote: post #28
Tiberium wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean "it's not"? We're not talking about E2E encryption specifically, just any encryption. MTProto uses encryption.

MTProto is the protocol used for secure chats, that is the name of their E2E encryption.. If you do not enable E2E it will not use MTProto and not have E2E encryption. And all of this is only available for private chats, none is available for groups chats..

I'm sorry, but MTProto isn't just used for E2E chats. It's the actual main protocol that Telegram uses for everything. And yes, for non-secure chats there will be no E2E, but the question was about encryption, not end to end encryption.

Re: Tell HN: Telegram is most likely doing client side scanning; I quit Telegram

#30

Post by tmottabr »

Tiberium wrote: post #29
tmottabr wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MTProto is the protocol used for secure chats, that is the name of their E2E encryption.. If you do not enable E2E it will not use MTProto and not have E2E encryption. And all of this is only available for private chats, none is available for groups chats..

I'm sorry, but MTProto isn't just used for E2E chats. It's the actual main protocol that Telegram uses for everything. And yes, for non-secure chats there will be no E2E, but the question was about encryption, not end to end encryption.

communication between client and server is always encrypted and they don't even need MTProto for that, a simple TLS connection would be more then enough, and likely better. Also, that is likely true for all modern messaging apps..

The question proposed is that Telegram was monitoring private chats on the client side, but they do not need to do that unless E2E is enabled..

If you do not have E2E enabled then everything you send is in the open while in their servers..

So, if you do not have private chat enabled then Telegram does not need to make any type of client side monitoring, they can just monitor what is going trough their servers because it is all in the open..

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