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AI for real-time fusion plasma behavior prediction and manipulation

control.princeton.edu

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Re: AI for real-time fusion plasma behavior prediction and manipulation

#21

Post by elashri »

atomic128 wrote: post #12

Neutrons make hardware radioactive. Many on Hacker News fantasize about fusion (not fission) reactors. These fusion reactors will be an intense source of fast neutrons. All the hardware in a fusion reactor will become radioactive. Not to mention the gamma rays. If you have to deal with radioactive materials, why not just use fission? After 70 years of working with fission reactors, we know how to build and operate th…

> we know how to build and operate them at 95%+ efficiency. Fission can provide all the power we need.

I am not sure what do you mean by 95%+ efficency here. But if you are talking about the entire process of getting the energy/power from the nuclear reactor this is not possible. You are still limited by carnot cycle. Even the most advanced reactors like HTGRs [1] operate with efficiency about 45%.

If you have some other definition of efficiency than the standard then it would be good if you define that.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-temperature_gas-cooled_re...

Re: AI for real-time fusion plasma behavior prediction and manipulation

#22

Post by atomic128 »

elashri wrote: post #21
atomic128 wrote: post #12

Neutrons make hardware radioactive. Many on Hacker News fantasize about fusion (not fission) reactors. These fusion reactors will be an intense source of fast neutrons. All the hardware in a fusion reactor will become radioactive. Not to mention the gamma rays. If you have to deal with radioactive materials, why not just use fission? After 70 years of working with fission reactors, we know how to build and operate th…

> we know how to build and operate them at 95%+ efficiency. Fission can provide all the power we need. I am not sure what do you mean by 95%+ efficency here. But if you are talking about the entire process of getting the energy/power from the nuclear reactor this is not possible. You are still limited by carnot cycle. Even the most advanced reactors like HTGRs [1] operate with efficiency about 45%. If you have some o…

See discussion of "capacity factor" here:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41858892

It's the same as when we talk about the efficiency of a GEMM kernel on a particular piece of hardware. As efficiency approaches 100% the kernel is saturating the hardware's capacity to perform multiply/add.

Re: AI for real-time fusion plasma behavior prediction and manipulation

#24

Post by fkyoureadthedoc »

CtrlAltmanDel wrote: post #16
anon291 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Energy can neither be created nor destroyed (matter is energy) When I say producing net energy I mean getting out more useful energy than we put in. At the lowest level, the energy we received comes from the fact that the two nuclei fused have a lower energy state than they had individually and the remaining energy causes heat via the emission of neutrons

"causes heat" Heat is the transfer of energy due to a temperature differential. I think you may want to review the highschool physics textbook.

I never took high school physics so I asked my best friend what you're talking about and he (ChatGPT) said

> CtrlAltmanDel nitpicks anon291’s use of "causes heat," arguing that heat is energy transfer due to temperature differences. This critique feels overly pedantic, as "heat" is commonly used to describe energy released in fusion (even if "thermal energy" might be more precise).

I don't know if I should trust the machine god or the snarky commenter with a vapid one liner here. You're both very confident.

Re: AI for real-time fusion plasma behavior prediction and manipulation

#25

Post by Jerrrrrrry »

CtrlAltmanDel wrote: post #16
anon291 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Energy can neither be created nor destroyed (matter is energy) When I say producing net energy I mean getting out more useful energy than we put in. At the lowest level, the energy we received comes from the fact that the two nuclei fused have a lower energy state than they had individually and the remaining energy causes heat via the emission of neutrons

"causes heat" Heat is the transfer of energy due to a temperature differential. I think you may want to review the highschool physics textbook.

no, that is work.

you may want to review the second law of thermodynamics

Re: AI for real-time fusion plasma behavior prediction and manipulation

#26

Post by howenterprisey »

atomic128 wrote: post #22
elashri wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we know how to build and operate them at 95%+ efficiency. Fission can provide all the power we need. I am not sure what do you mean by 95%+ efficency here. But if you are talking about the entire process of getting the energy/power from the nuclear reactor this is not possible. You are still limited by carnot cycle. Even the most advanced reactors like HTGRs [1] operate with efficiency about 45%. If you have some o…

See discussion of "capacity factor" here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41858892 It's the same as when we talk about the efficiency of a GEMM kernel on a particular piece of hardware. As efficiency approaches 100% the kernel is saturating the hardware's capacity to perform multiply/add.

The term "capacity factor" should generally always be used for that concept, because "efficiency" has its own, different, meaning for power plants.

Re: AI for real-time fusion plasma behavior prediction and manipulation

#27

Post by kaonwarb »

aftbit wrote: post #9

>Nuclear power plants are largely considered as one of the most reliable sources of energy. Inside the plants, reactors use fission to heat water into steam, which is then used to spin turbines and produce carbon-free electricity. However, nuclear fission produces nuclear waste, which requires great amounts of regulation for safe storage and disposal. This is an odd angle to highlight. The risk of long-lived nuclear…

I agree with your logic. However, fear of nuclear waste, rational or not, has been a major driver of public opposition for decades, and is worth the focus.

Re: AI for real-time fusion plasma behavior prediction and manipulation

#28

Post by anon291 »

CtrlAltmanDel wrote: post #16
anon291 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Energy can neither be created nor destroyed (matter is energy) When I say producing net energy I mean getting out more useful energy than we put in. At the lowest level, the energy we received comes from the fact that the two nuclei fused have a lower energy state than they had individually and the remaining energy causes heat via the emission of neutrons

"causes heat" Heat is the transfer of energy due to a temperature differential. I think you may want to review the highschool physics textbook.

Sigh... I'm not giving a physics lecture. Just speaking casually. The neutron energy imparts kinetic energy to particles which can be harvested in a well engineered system

Re: AI for real-time fusion plasma behavior prediction and manipulation

#30

Post by lanternfish »

CtrlAltmanDel wrote: post #16
anon291 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Energy can neither be created nor destroyed (matter is energy) When I say producing net energy I mean getting out more useful energy than we put in. At the lowest level, the energy we received comes from the fact that the two nuclei fused have a lower energy state than they had individually and the remaining energy causes heat via the emission of neutrons

"causes heat" Heat is the transfer of energy due to a temperature differential. I think you may want to review the highschool physics textbook.

Even under your pedantic definition, the above commentator is still correct
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