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The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

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Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#21

Post by sodfj11240 »

wdutch wrote: post #11
tkgally wrote: post #2

I am the author of this article and will be interested to read HNers’ thoughts and discussion about the topic. I will also be happy to respond to questions.

> The notion of “fairness” dominates English education policy in Japan. Because of the importance of educational credentials in Japanese life, any policy that seems to favor one group or another—the rich, the urban, children with highly-educated parents, or children who happen to have acquired English fluency on their own—will attract popular opposition. I teach ESL in Vietnam. The above quote boggles my mind. I've t…

I think it's more apt to compare between Korea / China / Japan where the written language is not Latin-based.

From my experience, most Vietnamese students catch up quickly with extra-curricular English class during their 4 years university.

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#22

Post by skhr0680 »

lmm wrote: post #14
skhr0680 wrote: post #4

Until Japanese have an economic reason to learn English, they will continue to participate in the educational equivalent of get-rich-quick schemes instead of actually getting good. It's a great example of the "Galapagos syndrome". There is English education at school, but it is based entirely on rote repetition and exercises instead of y'know, understanding the language. There are "English Conversation Schools", but…

There is a very strong economic incentive to do well on university entrance exams - they pretty much determine the course of a Japanese person's life - and thus both schools and outside tutoring focus on teaching students to score well on the English section of those exams, to the exclusion of learning to understand or speak English. Similarly, it can be beneficial to one's someone's career to get a high score on TOE…

That is exactly what I meant by Galapagos syndrome. I should have written external(= business conducted in English) economic incentive.

The elephant in the room is that 6/12 years school here are focused on rote remembering for the next entrance exam rather than learning.

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#23

Post by [deleted] »

rrrrrrrrrrrryan wrote: post #18
skhr0680 wrote: post #4

Until Japanese have an economic reason to learn English, they will continue to participate in the educational equivalent of get-rich-quick schemes instead of actually getting good. It's a great example of the "Galapagos syndrome". There is English education at school, but it is based entirely on rote repetition and exercises instead of y'know, understanding the language. There are "English Conversation Schools", but…

Do you think English language conversational AI tutors could have a positive impact on a nation like Japan (which tends to be a little more introverted)?

[deleted]

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#24

Post by mym1990 »

rrrrrrrrrrrryan wrote: post #18
skhr0680 wrote: post #4

Until Japanese have an economic reason to learn English, they will continue to participate in the educational equivalent of get-rich-quick schemes instead of actually getting good. It's a great example of the "Galapagos syndrome". There is English education at school, but it is based entirely on rote repetition and exercises instead of y'know, understanding the language. There are "English Conversation Schools", but…

Do you think English language conversational AI tutors could have a positive impact on a nation like Japan (which tends to be a little more introverted)?

Time will tell, maybe for the people that can create feedback loops for themselves where AI fills the gaps, but at the aggregate level I don’t think AI will move the needle. More likely people will use AI translation as a crutch, rather than learning to communicate without assistance.

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#25

Post by lmm »

skhr0680 wrote: post #22
lmm wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a very strong economic incentive to do well on university entrance exams - they pretty much determine the course of a Japanese person's life - and thus both schools and outside tutoring focus on teaching students to score well on the English section of those exams, to the exclusion of learning to understand or speak English. Similarly, it can be beneficial to one's someone's career to get a high score on TOE…

That is exactly what I meant by Galapagos syndrome. I should have written external(= business conducted in English) economic incentive. The elephant in the room is that 6/12 years school here are focused on rote remembering for the next entrance exam rather than learning.

Meh. Poor priority in schooling and teaching to the test are hardly unique to Japan.

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#26

Post by skhr0680 »

lmm wrote: post #25
skhr0680 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is exactly what I meant by Galapagos syndrome. I should have written external(= business conducted in English) economic incentive. The elephant in the room is that 6/12 years school here are focused on rote remembering for the next entrance exam rather than learning.

Meh. Poor priority in schooling and teaching to the test are hardly unique to Japan.

"Other countries have problems too"

OK, let's just give up trying to improve then.

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#27

Post by sien »

tkgally wrote: post #2

I am the author of this article and will be interested to read HNers’ thoughts and discussion about the topic. I will also be happy to respond to questions.

How do you think it compares to various European countries?

Say, Germany, Spain, Italy (or any that you're familiar with).

Northern Europeans seem to be fantastic at learning languages. It's surprising the rest of the world doesn't copy what they do.

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#28

Post by yowayb »

skhr0680 wrote: post #4

Until Japanese have an economic reason to learn English, they will continue to participate in the educational equivalent of get-rich-quick schemes instead of actually getting good. It's a great example of the "Galapagos syndrome". There is English education at school, but it is based entirely on rote repetition and exercises instead of y'know, understanding the language. There are "English Conversation Schools", but…

I spent 4 years in Istanbul and paid for Turkish classes at a popular English school chain. Their English was bad, and all the classes were full all day.

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#29

Post by tkgally »

minebreaker wrote: post #20

A few random thoughts from a Japanese programmer: (warning: not gonna be fun read) * As far as I can tell, most Japanese programmers can read at least some portion of English software documentations * English in Japan is always about the U.S. Not the U.K, not South Africa, not Singapore. I still remember my English teacher in the university, who was from South Africa, complained about that he was always assumed to be…

Thank you for your thoughts. They were indeed fun—and interesting—to read.

A couple of comments:

> English in Japan is always about the U.S. Not the U.K, not South Africa, not Singapore.

That is not quite as true as it used to be. The government-approved textbooks (kentei kyōkasho) for elementary and junior-high schools include characters and situations from outside the Inner Circle English-speaking countries more often than they used to, though they still have a slant toward the U.S. and toward white people:

https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jacetkanto/11/0/11_46/_...

I used to subscribe to two Japanese magazines for English educators, Eigo Kyōiku published by a commercial publisher and Shin Eigo Kyōiku published by an organization with a mission focused on democracy and justice in education. The former magazine often had articles with an American focus and photographs of white kids with blond hair, while almost every issue of the latter had a cover photograph of nonwhite children in a developing country and articles emphasizing the diversity of English.

I have been involved with the writing and editing of English textbooks, and there is often a tug-of-war between the Japanese writers and editors who want to emphasize the diversity of English and English speakers and those who prefer to stick to a focus on either the U.S. or U.K.

> I find it interesting that, your article doesn't mention on the Japan's political dependence and subordination to the United States.

That is an important topic, and I should have mentioned it as a major reason for the exclusive focus on English. Maybe I can discuss the issue in more detail in another article.

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#30

Post by minebreaker »

sien wrote: post #27
tkgally wrote: post #2

I am the author of this article and will be interested to read HNers’ thoughts and discussion about the topic. I will also be happy to respond to questions.

How do you think it compares to various European countries? Say, Germany, Spain, Italy (or any that you're familiar with). Northern Europeans seem to be fantastic at learning languages. It's surprising the rest of the world doesn't copy what they do.

To be fair, it's much easier to learn English if your mother tongue is a variant of Indo-European.
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