Online Notarization now Legal • Hacker News Board

Re: Online Notarization now Legal

#21

Post by rprasad » Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 1:07 AM UTC

This service is illegal in California. California, and most states, require a person to prove their identity in the physical presence of the notary, and the notary must physically examine the proofs of id used to verify their authenticity.

Link to California Secretary of Website Customer Alert about this service, posted this afternoon: http://www.sos.ca.gov/business/notary/customer-alert.htm

Quoted from the linked page: A private company claims to have the first online notarization website and has sent misleading information and made false claims to California notaries public concerning a new online notarization service. The web-based platform purports to allow a person to submit copies of identification over the Internet and to use a webcam in lieu of a personal appearance in front of a notary public. Appearance via webcam does not meet the requirements for notarization in California.

California notaries public are authorized under current law to perform electronic notarizations as long as all the requirements for a traditional paper-based notarial act are met, including the use of a seal for all but two specific documents used in real estate transactions. California law requires a person to appear personally before a notary public to obtain notarial acts like acknowledgments or jurats. This means the party must be physically present before the notary public. A video image or other form of non-physical representation is not a personal appearance in front of a notary public under current state or federal laws. The technology solution offered by this private company does not comply with California law.

Re: Online Notarization now Legal

#22

Post by pseingatl » Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 1:22 AM UTC

rprasad wrote: post #20

dfc wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So full faith and credit does not extend to notarizations?

No., the full faith and credit clause provides: Full faith and credit shall be given in each state to the public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of every other state. And the Congress may by general laws prescribe the manner in which such acts, records, and proceedings shall be proved, and the effect thereof. However, notarization services are not public acts, records, or judicial proceedings. (Strictly speak…

I don't think this is true at all. In Florida, notaries are appointed by the Governor, an elected official. Nevertheless, notarizations are "records" within the meaning of the FFC clause. In Louisiana, notaries keep books of their notarizations. More importantly, the incapacity of a notary will not invalidate the notarization. The fact is, notarization is a historical artifact and is essentially meaningless. Keep in mind that tax returns do not need to be notarized and you can still be prosecuted for perjury if you lie. Need a quick notarization with no notary around? Look at 28 USC 1746: type the language given there on your document, sign and you are good to go for everything except real estate transaction.

Re: Online Notarization now Legal

#23

Post by rprasad » Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 1:23 AM UTC

ben1040 wrote: post #12

steve8918 wrote: post #8

If I receive a document notarized by this service, how can I trust that this service has done its due diligence? From a cursory look, I just can't believe that a document can be notarized online without even knowing if the person exists. Admittedly, I don't know too much about the notarization process, so maybe they verify things like identification given to them? Does the service explain what steps it does in order…

I can't see from a cursory glance how they verify identity. But I assume they might use one of the schemes used by banks when setting up online accounts, or even by the TSA when you forget your ID and want to board a plane. They look at public/commercial records to come up with questions that only you should be able to answer. Stuff like "DMV records show you own a Toyota Camry, what is the model year?," "which of th…

The credit bureau services used by banks are not intended to verify your identity for notary purposes; they are used to verify your identify for credit purposes. The databases provided by the credit bureaus are so unbelievably error-filled that they frequently fail to perform even this basic task (and if you read the fine print when you agree to allow this type of check, you will see that they acknowledge that their service cannot be relied upon to prove identity).

Moreover, this system of "verification" merely proves that the person being examined knows publicly purchasable facts about the alleged identity they claim. (All of the data used by these systems comes from public records, all of which can be accessed for free or for a fee.)

Re: Online Notarization now Legal

#24

Post by pseingatl » Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 1:23 AM UTC

Let's not forget 28 USC 1746 which substitutes for notarization in almost every case except real estate transactions.

Re: Online Notarization now Legal

#25

Post by rprasad » Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 1:25 AM UTC

caseya wrote: post #13

ben1040 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't see from a cursory glance how they verify identity. But I assume they might use one of the schemes used by banks when setting up online accounts, or even by the TSA when you forget your ID and want to board a plane. They look at public/commercial records to come up with questions that only you should be able to answer. Stuff like "DMV records show you own a Toyota Camry, what is the model year?," "which of th…

We use Experian's Knowledge-Based Authentication, which is similar to what ben1040 mentioned above. It is based on your name, address, and sometimes your SSN. You can read more on Experian's KBA here: https://www.experian.com/products/pdf/knowledge_iq.pdf Or here: https://www.experian.com/esolutions/esolutions/products/frau...

Experian's KBA is not adequate to prove identity for legal purposes in any state, or for federal purposes. My banks won't even use it to verify identity for credit purposes.

What incompetent lawyer told you that you could use it for the basis of your service? Moreover, what incompetent lawyer told you that you could offer such a state-specific thing as notarization services nationwide?

Re: Online Notarization now Legal

#26

Post by mattjaynes » Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 1:59 AM UTC

caseya wrote: post #7

devinfoley wrote: post #4

I'm very excited about this, but it would be nice to see the price without having to first upload a document.

We'll be adding pricing to the homepage this week as well. For everybody reading this, it's $14.95 per notarization.

I'm very happy to pay that price. It was annoying though that the pricing was hidden and I had to come to the comments here to discover the price.

I hope you ignore the people that complain and nitpick the price. They may be the most vocal, but there are plenty of us who value our time more than money and 15 bucks is a great deal.

That said, don't make me hunt down the price. It wastes my time and energy. Display the price and you'll generate goodwill with the customers that actually matter.