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Over 40% of foreigner deaths in Korea have unknown causes

koreatimes.co.kr

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Re: Over 40% of foreigner deaths in Korea have unknown causes

#21

Post by jncfhnb »

boodleboodle wrote: post #9
Onavo wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, they also classify suicides as "fan death", saving face is a big thing in that part of the world . Most likely they do know the real cause but chose not to release it if it's not suspicious.

This "fan-death-to-cover-up-suicide" is ABSOLUTELY false and is my greatest pet peeve with the English internet. Someone heard East Asians like to save face and came up with this dehumanizing and derogatory theory. Misconceptions of "fan death" predates any suicidal trends in Korea and if there was any connection to suicides we koreans would be the ones talking about it non-stop. > Most likely the do know the real ca…

Fan death predating the rise in suicide trends makes it seem more likely to me that fan death was used to obscure a suicide.

What is your perspective on what it is?

Re: Over 40% of foreigner deaths in Korea have unknown causes

#22

Post by rightbyte »

latentsea wrote: post #10
boodleboodle wrote: post #4

Just to add context: "unknown causes" was the leading cause of death for Korean citizens as well in 2023 and not just foreigners. Half of deaths with "unknown causes" is dying from old age. Other factors include SID, etc.

The article says: This figure is significantly higher compared to the number of deaths among Korean nationals.

With no old medical journal at hand for foreigners I would anticipate 'unknown death reason' to be higher?

Re: Over 40% of foreigner deaths in Korea have unknown causes

#24

Post by ProjectArcturis »

boodleboodle wrote: post #9
Onavo wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, they also classify suicides as "fan death", saving face is a big thing in that part of the world . Most likely they do know the real cause but chose not to release it if it's not suspicious.

This "fan-death-to-cover-up-suicide" is ABSOLUTELY false and is my greatest pet peeve with the English internet. Someone heard East Asians like to save face and came up with this dehumanizing and derogatory theory. Misconceptions of "fan death" predates any suicidal trends in Korea and if there was any connection to suicides we koreans would be the ones talking about it non-stop. > Most likely the do know the real ca…

I once asked a Korean MD/PhD about fan deaths. I was expecting her to say, "Oh, people don't really believe in that. It's just something a few grandmas worry about." What she actually said was, "Oh yeah, that's really dangerous."

Re: Over 40% of foreigner deaths in Korea have unknown causes

#25

Post by aithrowawaycomm »

sudosysgen wrote: post #16
aithrowawaycomm wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am sure it's more benign than that, although of course exploiting foreign labor is an issue. South Korea has problems but it is a liberal democracy whose economy does not depend on cheap manual labor like the UAE; if large numbers of foreign workers were being killed on the job, a Korean citizen or rights group would blow the whistle. I believe South Korea (like most industrialized countries) does not offer single-…

Most industrialized countries do offer single payer healthcare to taxpaying foreigners, perhaps after a reasonable period of time.

No, they offer single-payer healthcare to legal permanent residents. There is a significant gap with temporary residents, including people shuffling back and forth on work visas which might get shadily overextended with under-the-table work, or undocumented immigrants (no reason to use a dishonest and inflammatory term like “taxpaying foreigners” when you mean “legal residents,” paying taxes is not the issue).

Re: Over 40% of foreigner deaths in Korea have unknown causes

#26

Post by BobaFloutist »

lubujackson wrote: post #5
boodleboodle wrote: post #4

Just to add context: "unknown causes" was the leading cause of death for Korean citizens as well in 2023 and not just foreigners. Half of deaths with "unknown causes" is dying from old age. Other factors include SID, etc.

"Old age" isn't a cause of death? Maybe more appropriate is "Korea doesn't care about tracking the cause of death." That, or they are butchering foreigners and old people over there.

I think they're saying more that when the ultimate cause of a fairly unsurprising death is unclear or ambiguous, unlike saying "CHF" or "Brain Death" as the "cause" like we often do, they just say "unknown."

To clarify, heart failure and brain death are going to be part of every death, no matter the ultimate cause, but sometimes if it's a little difficult to pinpoint the actual reason someone whose body was failing kind of across the board died, the doctor declaring death will just pick a failed organ that was clearly linked to the death and point the finger at it.

Re: Over 40% of foreigner deaths in Korea have unknown causes

#27

Post by sudosysgen »

aithrowawaycomm wrote: post #25
sudosysgen wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most industrialized countries do offer single payer healthcare to taxpaying foreigners, perhaps after a reasonable period of time.

No, they offer single-payer healthcare to legal permanent residents. There is a significant gap with temporary residents, including people shuffling back and forth on work visas which might get shadily overextended with under-the-table work, or undocumented immigrants (no reason to use a dishonest and inflammatory term like “taxpaying foreigners” when you mean “legal residents,” paying taxes is not the issue).

In most of the industrialized world you can't pay taxes if you're not there legally. And there is no need to be a permanent resident for single payer healthcare in most countries, just to be there working legally for some time.

I wrote "taxpaying foreigner" as opposed to "permanent resident" because most industrialized countries do indeed offer their healthcare to non-permanent residents on work visas. For example in Ontario after 90 days you have access to single payer healthcare. In France you get it after 3 months, in Spain after 2-6 months depending on the locality, etc...

Re: Over 40% of foreigner deaths in Korea have unknown causes

#28

Post by southernplaces7 »

BobaFloutist wrote: post #26
lubujackson wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Old age" isn't a cause of death? Maybe more appropriate is "Korea doesn't care about tracking the cause of death." That, or they are butchering foreigners and old people over there.

I think they're saying more that when the ultimate cause of a fairly unsurprising death is unclear or ambiguous, unlike saying "CHF" or "Brain Death" as the "cause" like we often do, they just say "unknown." To clarify, heart failure and brain death are going to be part of every death, no matter the ultimate cause, but sometimes if it's a little difficult to pinpoint the actual reason someone whose body was failing k…

>To clarify, heart failure and brain death are going to be part of every death

Not entirely related to the topic at hand, but i want to mention it as a darkly amusing anecdote: During the heyday of the Soviet NKVD's (predecessor to the KGB) management of Stalin's monstrous purge of Soviet society, hundreds of thousands of people were killed in all sorts of ways. Many of them died by torture or just by being shot illegally (even by Stalinist Soviet standards) Since publicly acknowledging this made for bad optics even in the Stalinist USSR, a very common formal, officially recorded cause of death in these cases was "heart failure". Why? Because whether you shoot, starve, freeze or beat and torture someone to death, their ultimate cause of death involves the stopping of their heart. It's crudely honest for the sake of superficial legality, without being in the least bit truly honest about the context of what was happening.

Re: Over 40% of foreigner deaths in Korea have unknown causes

#29

Post by southernplaces7 »

ProjectArcturis wrote: post #24
boodleboodle wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This "fan-death-to-cover-up-suicide" is ABSOLUTELY false and is my greatest pet peeve with the English internet. Someone heard East Asians like to save face and came up with this dehumanizing and derogatory theory. Misconceptions of "fan death" predates any suicidal trends in Korea and if there was any connection to suicides we koreans would be the ones talking about it non-stop. > Most likely the do know the real ca…

I once asked a Korean MD/PhD about fan deaths. I was expecting her to say, "Oh, people don't really believe in that. It's just something a few grandmas worry about." What she actually said was, "Oh yeah, that's really dangerous."

I hope that's not a sign of the general state of MD/PhD thinking in Korean society, considering how, you know, absurdly, obviously, stupidly mistaken the notion of fans suffocating people in closed rooms is.

I'd definitely not want a doctor with such a belief coming within a mile of treating me for anything.

Re: Over 40% of foreigner deaths in Korea have unknown causes

#30

Post by boodleboodle »

ProjectArcturis wrote: post #24
boodleboodle wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This "fan-death-to-cover-up-suicide" is ABSOLUTELY false and is my greatest pet peeve with the English internet. Someone heard East Asians like to save face and came up with this dehumanizing and derogatory theory. Misconceptions of "fan death" predates any suicidal trends in Korea and if there was any connection to suicides we koreans would be the ones talking about it non-stop. > Most likely the do know the real ca…

I once asked a Korean MD/PhD about fan deaths. I was expecting her to say, "Oh, people don't really believe in that. It's just something a few grandmas worry about." What she actually said was, "Oh yeah, that's really dangerous."

Yeah nobody believes it now but back then everybody did. We treated it exactly like how we believe airplanes fly. Some air flow and fluid dynamics. Airplanes fly so why not fan deaths? I guess doctors passed it off as physics and physicians passed it off as physiology.
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