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Rivian (RIVN) clashes with Bosch in new legal battle over EV motors

electrek.co

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Re: Rivian (RIVN) clashes with Bosch in new legal battle over EV motors

#21

Post by MrHamburger »

CharlieDigital wrote: post #6
thebruce87m wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The legacy manufacturers are having a competition to see who can become the next Nokia. The infotainment system, charging network and charging experience of a Tesla are still far ahead of the competition but I can’t tell why. There is literally a playbook to follow and they are all failing at it.

My non-expert guesses: - Investing capital for new manufacturing lines, retraining employees, hiring new employees, etc. means reduced profits and reduced short term returns for shareholders. The top level execs probably feel like their heads would be on the chopping block if investor returns were to be reduced in the short term for accelerating long term growth. - A lot of entrenched mid-level and senior executives…

Or general mass market is not interested in BEVs specifically, but in a cheap vehicle which can get them from point A to point B. And BEVs at the moment are anything but cheap + add there negative adventures with charging infrastructure if you can't charge at home (50% of people in EU can't) and owning a BEV is suddenly more of a niche thing for rich people than mass market opportunity.

Re: Rivian (RIVN) clashes with Bosch in new legal battle over EV motors

#22

Post by simne »

carlgreene wrote: post #19
charrondev wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My biggest surprise with the non-Chinese EVs is that the range hasn’t been increasing. Rivian announced models r2 and r3 seem that are set to come in 2026 and 2027 seem to still be around 300 miles of range. Most other EVs are similar. At the same time Chinese EVs have ranges of of 500 and 600 miles. I don’t think I can purchase an EV as a primary vehicle until they catch up.

Do you know what this is due to?

To save costs and weight on battery, sure.

I don't know Chinese use cases, but in continental Europe many machines don't run full 500km every day, even many private made less then 100km per day, so they don't need 500km range. Not for all 200km enough, many need about 220km..300km for commute (two commutes per day, so could charge battery at parking).

So, with halved battery size, you will got cheaper EV and more space for passengers and luggage.

Large range is a must for business (semi)-cargo machines and for taxi.

Re: Rivian (RIVN) clashes with Bosch in new legal battle over EV motors

#23

Post by thebruce87m »

MrHamburger wrote: post #21
CharlieDigital wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My non-expert guesses: - Investing capital for new manufacturing lines, retraining employees, hiring new employees, etc. means reduced profits and reduced short term returns for shareholders. The top level execs probably feel like their heads would be on the chopping block if investor returns were to be reduced in the short term for accelerating long term growth. - A lot of entrenched mid-level and senior executives…

Or general mass market is not interested in BEVs specifically, but in a cheap vehicle which can get them from point A to point B. And BEVs at the moment are anything but cheap + add there negative adventures with charging infrastructure if you can't charge at home (50% of people in EU can't) and owning a BEV is suddenly more of a niche thing for rich people than mass market opportunity.

> And BEVs at the moment are anything but cheap

Fascinating to see the comments on EV threads where they are claimed to be expensive, but also that the second hand values are really low. Surely buying a second hand one solves the absolute “expensive” bit?

Even then I’d question the “more expensive than ICE” claims for new models. In the UK the average cost of a new vehicle is £40k: https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/opinion/363624/average-new-car...

A model 3 is £40k

I am not rich. You can count me in the 50% of people who can charge at home, which saves me £100/month in fuel.

Re: Rivian (RIVN) clashes with Bosch in new legal battle over EV motors

#24

Post by CharlieDigital »

MrHamburger wrote: post #20
CharlieDigital wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some damning bits if true: > “Bosch made a calculated gamble to overpromise to multiple start-up electric vehicle companies on the theory that at least some of them would soon fail,” the lawsuit read. > Rivian engineers said one of the lines was “in shambles” during a visit to Germany and claimed Bosch was not using “industry standard technology.” This coupled with BMW's recent pushback against EU ICE phaseout seems…

> This coupled with BMW's recent pushback against EU ICE phaseout seems to paint a picture of legacy manufacturers unwilling to invest in what is the obvious path forward. It is not really obvious path when people in Europe are not buying BEVs unless there is some serious subsidy on it.

I dunno; to me, it seems as obvious as the sun-setting of steam powered locomotion. It's only a matter of time.

And as we've seen, it's clear that the future of mobility is going to be electric. I find it hard to believe that if we look 50 years out, the majority will still be driving gasoline and diesel powered vehicles. So then the question is how and when do we get there?

> ...people in Europe are not buying BEVs

I can completely understand the reasons why. Infrastructure, the way residential areas are set up are not compatible with charging, price, inconvenience, etc. But those are problems that governments need to help solve if we already know the end result is that mobility will be primarily electric at some point in the future.

Re: Rivian (RIVN) clashes with Bosch in new legal battle over EV motors

#25

Post by CharlieDigital »

Neil44 wrote: post #10
thebruce87m wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The legacy manufacturers are having a competition to see who can become the next Nokia. The infotainment system, charging network and charging experience of a Tesla are still far ahead of the competition but I can’t tell why. There is literally a playbook to follow and they are all failing at it.

They're producing what people want to buy. Used EV prices are in freefall. I'm not saying that's a good thing it's just the way it is.

I'd argue that any numbers supporting this are likely significantly skewed by Tesla's recent and dramatic price cuts significantly pulling down the used car prices for EVs as a whole.

Re: Rivian (RIVN) clashes with Bosch in new legal battle over EV motors

#26

Post by MrHamburger »

thebruce87m wrote: post #23
MrHamburger wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or general mass market is not interested in BEVs specifically, but in a cheap vehicle which can get them from point A to point B. And BEVs at the moment are anything but cheap + add there negative adventures with charging infrastructure if you can't charge at home (50% of people in EU can't) and owning a BEV is suddenly more of a niche thing for rich people than mass market opportunity.

> And BEVs at the moment are anything but cheap Fascinating to see the comments on EV threads where they are claimed to be expensive, but also that the second hand values are really low. Surely buying a second hand one solves the absolute “expensive” bit? Even then I’d question the “more expensive than ICE” claims for new models. In the UK the average cost of a new vehicle is £40k: https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/opini…

New VW Golf floats around 30k EUR, which is still 10k EUR cheaper than Tesla Model 3 and you still have 10k for fuel - that's with your difference is 8 years of driving.

However 50% of people in EU does not have home charging (i.e. living in apartments) therefore they won't see your savings but they will see the wasted time on public chargers.

Re: Rivian (RIVN) clashes with Bosch in new legal battle over EV motors

#27

Post by MrHamburger »

CharlieDigital wrote: post #24
MrHamburger wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This coupled with BMW's recent pushback against EU ICE phaseout seems to paint a picture of legacy manufacturers unwilling to invest in what is the obvious path forward. It is not really obvious path when people in Europe are not buying BEVs unless there is some serious subsidy on it.

I dunno; to me, it seems as obvious as the sun-setting of steam powered locomotion. It's only a matter of time. And as we've seen, it's clear that the future of mobility is going to be electric. I find it hard to believe that if we look 50 years out, the majority will still be driving gasoline and diesel powered vehicles. So then the question is how and when do we get there? > ...people in Europe are not buying BEVs…

> But those are problems that governments need to help solve

I don't think that it has a solution. Governments are trying to solve parking for decades and still no solution in sight. If you don't have where to park, you don't have where to charge.

Re: Rivian (RIVN) clashes with Bosch in new legal battle over EV motors

#28

Post by thebruce87m »

MrHamburger wrote: post #26
thebruce87m wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And BEVs at the moment are anything but cheap Fascinating to see the comments on EV threads where they are claimed to be expensive, but also that the second hand values are really low. Surely buying a second hand one solves the absolute “expensive” bit? Even then I’d question the “more expensive than ICE” claims for new models. In the UK the average cost of a new vehicle is £40k: https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/opini…

New VW Golf floats around 30k EUR, which is still 10k EUR cheaper than Tesla Model 3 and you still have 10k for fuel - that's with your difference is 8 years of driving. However 50% of people in EU does not have home charging (i.e. living in apartments) therefore they won't see your savings but they will see the wasted time on public chargers.

> New VW Golf floats around 30k EUR, which is still 10k EUR cheaper than Tesla Model 3 and you still have 10k for fuel - that's with your difference is 8 years of driving.

OK? I chose an average to avoid cherry picking, so I don’t see the value of you cherry picking a cheaper car, it’s just going to be a race to the bottom.

> However 50% of people in EU does not have home charging (i.e. living in apartments) therefore they won't see your savings but they will see the wasted time on public chargers.

It’s very situation dependent. If people can charge at work, while shopping or during natural stops on long journeys and so on. For some it might take longer until infrastructure catches up, but we are digging up roads to put fibre everywhere and I refuse to believe we can’t give every space in a block of flats what essentially amounts to a 3-pin plug (or 2 in the EU).

I had to charge publicly on Friday during a long journey - I’d estimate it took around 30 seconds total extra* time and most of that was the credit card clearing. The car charged as we ate and had more than enough when we’d finished. Still faster than fuelling an ICE since we would have had to do an additional stop.

*It wasn’t even really extra since my wife was inside ordering anyway.

Re: Rivian (RIVN) clashes with Bosch in new legal battle over EV motors

#29

Post by simne »

akshayB wrote: post #9

Rivian have always struggled to bring down the cost of manufacturing their EVs. This is one of the biggest issues they have when you are making an EV battery & motor are 2 of the most important components of the car. In Rivians case they both are sourced and not done in-house. They got carried away making a luxurious car, custom screen setup (rather then leveraging Carplay or Android Auto) & good looking interior. If…

> an EV battery & motor are 2 of the most important components of the car.

No. In free market not exist predefined constant priorities. Free market is dynamic system, which constantly change.

In 1960s and before, people buy any affordable machine, but in some niches preferred machines with good dynamics and (or!) with good fuel economy, so yes, good engine and transmission was important, and invested huge resources in them.

In 1980s most machines become very similar, and market demand for beautiful design and comfort, with good enough engine.

European geography is specific, it have big market of powerful 3rd party manufacturers of engines, new manufacturer just not have chances, but it's design market is not filled (nobody could name VAG designs bad, but they lack spice).

Also important thing, modern automobile is not simple thing, to fill all areas (engine, design, comfort), manufacturer need very large team. So to save design costs it is good to avoid some areas, for example to focus on comfort and interior.

So for Rivian is wise to TRY save costs and focus priorities on design/comfort and outsource EV battery & motor.

Re: Rivian (RIVN) clashes with Bosch in new legal battle over EV motors

#30

Post by simne »

simne wrote: post #29
akshayB wrote: post #9

Rivian have always struggled to bring down the cost of manufacturing their EVs. This is one of the biggest issues they have when you are making an EV battery & motor are 2 of the most important components of the car. In Rivians case they both are sourced and not done in-house. They got carried away making a luxurious car, custom screen setup (rather then leveraging Carplay or Android Auto) & good looking interior. If…

> an EV battery & motor are 2 of the most important components of the car. No. In free market not exist predefined constant priorities. Free market is dynamic system, which constantly change. In 1960s and before, people buy any affordable machine, but in some niches preferred machines with good dynamics and (or!) with good fuel economy, so yes, good engine and transmission was important, and invested huge resources i…

BTW not all people know, BMW initially was not just focused on dynamics, but sacrificed comfort to save weight, and they was small manufacturer with moderate sales, even once considered to save costs on avoid US market.

I cannot prove, but looks that BMW sales grown magnitudes, after them made pivot, to dynamic-luxurious direction.

Similar to BMW history was with Porsche, their sales grown with Cayenne, which is hated by many fans.

And also important thing - Tesla with Musk have ambitions to be big manufacturer, but not all other companies have such ambitions.

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