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The Shroud of Turin: History and Legends

michaelshermer.substack.com

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Re: The Shroud of Turin: History and Legends

#21

Post by appguy »

tsimionescu wrote: post #10
FrustratedMonky wrote: post #2

I don't get why it couldn't just be anybody's shroud. Didn't everyone at that time get a shroud.

First of all, the thing is not a shroud, it's essentially a 14th century painting, created as one of a myriad fake relics for money and fame. Second of all, if you believed it were a real ancient shroud, you would have to explain how the image on it was produced. Corpses don't leave images on shrouds, and even if it were true that everyone in ancient Israel were wrapped in a linen shroud when they died, people certai…

Scientists have recently used a new x-ray imaging technique to date The Shroud to the 1st century. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-13758359/amp...

Re: The Shroud of Turin: History and Legends

#23

Post by mock-possum »

tsimionescu wrote: post #10
FrustratedMonky wrote: post #2

I don't get why it couldn't just be anybody's shroud. Didn't everyone at that time get a shroud.

First of all, the thing is not a shroud, it's essentially a 14th century painting, created as one of a myriad fake relics for money and fame. Second of all, if you believed it were a real ancient shroud, you would have to explain how the image on it was produced. Corpses don't leave images on shrouds, and even if it were true that everyone in ancient Israel were wrapped in a linen shroud when they died, people certai…

> you would have to explain how

No, you’re making this too complicated.

It happened miraculously because god is all-powerful and can do whatever, whenever. Boom. Solved. Easy.

Re: The Shroud of Turin: History and Legends

#25

Post by AStonesThrow »

kemotep wrote: post #19
therealpresence wrote: post #13

[flagged]

Can you explain why Eucharistic miracles also happen in Greece and Russia despite there not being Catholic Priests performing the rites?

Because they are real priests and the real Eucharist.

Roman Catholics recognize that apostolic succession and Holy Orders remains perfectly valid for most of the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches. Furthermore, we recognize, in general, that their seven sacraments (we typically work from an identical list) are completely valid, because they have no material defects in matter, intention, form, subject, etc.

While the Eastern Orthodox insist that only leavened bread is valid Eucharistic matter, Roman Catholics feel that there's nothing wrong with that from their perspective.

The reverse is not always true. The Orthodox sometimes accuse Catholics even of not being properly baptized. They do not always recognize the Roman Catholic priesthood as acceptable. The Coptic Orthodox Church recently entered an agreement to stop re-baptizing Catholics. These are great strides in ecumenism when such difficulties are overcome.

Re: The Shroud of Turin: History and Legends

#26

Post by bediger4000 »

appguy wrote: post #20

Something that amazes me about The Shroud of Turin is that if it was created in the 14th century, how did they create a photographic negative 400 years before the first known photographic negative was created in 1826 by Nicephore Niepce. It’s the most studied artifact in history and still no one knows how The Shroud was created.

There's a number of weird things that knowledge of their manufacture has been lost. The lenses of Gotland, Greek Fire and the Chinese Jade burial suits all come to mind.

I don't see that as a reason to Revere any item.

Re: The Shroud of Turin: History and Legends

#27

Post by kcplate »

tsimionescu wrote: post #10
FrustratedMonky wrote: post #2

I don't get why it couldn't just be anybody's shroud. Didn't everyone at that time get a shroud.

First of all, the thing is not a shroud, it's essentially a 14th century painting, created as one of a myriad fake relics for money and fame. Second of all, if you believed it were a real ancient shroud, you would have to explain how the image on it was produced. Corpses don't leave images on shrouds, and even if it were true that everyone in ancient Israel were wrapped in a linen shroud when they died, people certai…

> Second of all, if you believed it were a real ancient shroud, you would have to explain how the image on it was produced. Corpses don't leave images on shrouds

Well, they have haven’t they? I think you need to put yourself in the shoes of a believing Christian/catholic. There is really no need for them to try and explain scientifically what is explained miraculously. From the miraculous POV the act of resurrection itself may have created the image and since man cannot replicate that process, it’s impossible to explain it scientifically. But what we do know is that certain energetic particles applied to certain mediums do leave traces and can leave negative images. So even science helps to lend credence to their theory of a miracle

So if it is an ancient piece of cloth and there isn’t a scientific explanation yet that adequately explains how the image could be produced and since you cannot prove that a God does or doesn’t exist…a believing Christian can easily rely on faith that it is what it is purported to be.

So it’s up to you to prove them wrong, not up to them to prove that they are right.

Re: The Shroud of Turin: History and Legends

#28

Post by tsimionescu »

appguy wrote: post #21
tsimionescu wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, the thing is not a shroud, it's essentially a 14th century painting, created as one of a myriad fake relics for money and fame. Second of all, if you believed it were a real ancient shroud, you would have to explain how the image on it was produced. Corpses don't leave images on shrouds, and even if it were true that everyone in ancient Israel were wrapped in a linen shroud when they died, people certai…

Scientists have recently used a new x-ray imaging technique to date The Shroud to the 1st century. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-13758359/amp...

That study [0] is published in a non-peer-reviewed journal with a very low impact factor, Heritage. Additionally, their findings suggests the shroud was kept within a very narrow range of temperatures to support the 1st century hypothesis, which makes it even more suspect.

Additionally, their findings contradict a very well established C14 dating technique, in an extremely well documented and thought out study, using 8 different world class laboratories, for which their only explanation is "contamination" (ignoring the fact that the sample is pristine by comparison with many artifacts routinely dated using C14).

Also, if you want to cite a study, maybe find the link to the study, not a Daily Mail article.

[0] https://www.mdpi.com/2571-9408/5/2/47

Re: The Shroud of Turin: History and Legends

#29

Post by wrzuteczka »

tsimionescu wrote: post #28
appguy wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scientists have recently used a new x-ray imaging technique to date The Shroud to the 1st century. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-13758359/amp...

That study [0] is published in a non-peer-reviewed journal with a very low impact factor, Heritage. Additionally, their findings suggests the shroud was kept within a very narrow range of temperatures to support the 1st century hypothesis, which makes it even more suspect. Additionally, their findings contradict a very well established C14 dating technique, in an extremely well documented and thought out study, using…

These 8 laboratories shared the same sample collected from a corner of the shroud. The priests handling the shroud would always hold it by its corners. So the explanation is not as weak as it may sound.

Re: The Shroud of Turin: History and Legends

#30

Post by hulitu »

appguy wrote: post #22
FrustratedMonky wrote: post #2

I don't get why it couldn't just be anybody's shroud. Didn't everyone at that time get a shroud.

The wounds on the man on The Shroud match those of Jesus Christ in the Bible. The crown of thorns, scourging, crucifixion, piercing on the side.

Do you have a bible with photos ? I only have one with text. /s
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