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Pen Type-A: a cautionary tale of manufacturing in China

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Re: Pen Type-A: a cautionary tale of manufacturing in China

#22

Sadly these guys wrote an identical blog post a year ago about how their previous manufacturer was unprofessional. The new one was supposed to be top notch, since they met him in person and toured the factory before signing. http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cwandt/pen-type-a-a-mini...

The description and photos of the etching and milling "factories" are, for me, the sort of thing that makes funding Kickstarter projects worthwhile:

... As we got into the car to head to the other factories, the factory owner conveniently disappeared and we were whisked off with his assistant and a machinist. It was unclear where we were going. After a long drive, the car stopped and we were told to get out. There was no factory.

We were on a dark, narrow road where every storefront was some variation of a live/work machine shop. Each one different. Each one specialized. A whole town of them, crammed side by side on narrow streets lit only by the glow of naked fluorescent bulbs. Think Bladerunner meets pre-industrial metal shops. The energy was palpable. Clean? No. Could we find it on a map? No. Could we have ever imagined that a factory work is outsourced to places like this? Definitely not. And even though we had never seen anything like it before, we could recognize it straight away. Every shop was run by highly skilled, passionate, self-taught makers. A lot like the shops many of our friends back home run. They are their own bosses. They live for and are proud of their work. This was nothing like the factory where we spent the past few days. It was invigorating.

The man that machines the screw parts is awesome and his setup is incredible. He has six CNC swiss screw machines in a storefront garage, in the back room is his office, a small kitchenette, a toilet (which you flush by pouring a bucket of water into it) and a small room off the back where he and his wife sleep. ...

(I received my Pen Type-A a month or two ago, by the way. It's well made and is a pleasure to use.)

Re: Pen Type-A: a cautionary tale of manufacturing in China

#23
post #6

I guess some people here live in github but I really don't recommend it for publishing text documents this way. Sure I can read it by scrolling back and forth or downloading it and opening it in something that will format it nicely and perhaps I missed the "make readable" button. But serious it is 2012, there are dozens of ways to publish things on the web that format them automatically for the browser to people can…

[deleted]

Re: Pen Type-A: a cautionary tale of manufacturing in China

#24

Waiting for a bad experience with an American company so that they can swear off all United States based manufacturing and move everything to friendly Mexico.

In the US, you have more legal options. IIRC (and I'm not a lawyer), in China you are unlikely to be able to sue for more than what you paid. Chinese law can seem a lot more laisse faire compared to US law, unless they think you are in debt (and then you get imprisoned). Actually, it's not always laisse faire, it just looks that way because some things aren't enforced, and other things are - it's different, and your supplier knows the law better than you.

From reading http://www.chinalawblog.com/, it seems one solution is to include an arbitration clause. You can take them to arbitration in the US, using US law, and get the decision enforced by arbitration treaties. But you'd want legal advice for this - if you mess up, the you can end up in a no-man's land where the Chinese courts refuse to see you (because you've specified a foreign legal jurisdiction), and refuse to enforce a foreign ruling because it's not in their jurisdiction.

Also, you want some things in Chinese. If anything gets used in a Chinese court, it gets translated to Chinese. If the other party manages to influence the official translation (or the official translation is just wrong), it's not going to be fun trying to change the courts mind.

Whatever the case, working with a Chinese supplier requires a good OEM agreement, written with the advice of a lawyer who knows the ins and outs of Chinese OEM agreements. It's not easy, but it's better than your supplier seeing you as an easy mark.

Re: Pen Type-A: a cautionary tale of manufacturing in China

#25

   People dream up a product
   Other people give them money
   First people gives money to China and hope product materializes
Heck, even software, being done by yourself, is not that simple

Also, this is only a sob history. Nobody will learn anything from it. How did they find factories in China? How did they find one in the us?

Re: Pen Type-A: a cautionary tale of manufacturing in China

#26
Good,

But this works fine only as long as some guy makes the same pens and starts selling for prices way lesser than you do.

This is the reason why China exists. Because there is 'Some guy' who always sells things for prices lesser than somebody else. And not manufacturing in China isn't an option for companies like Apple, Dell etc. For their volume, the cost advantage is simply too huge.

Re: Pen Type-A: a cautionary tale of manufacturing in China

#27
post #8

I had a (shockingly) similar experience with Chinese manufacturers five years ago. My experience cost me a company, my shirt, and a whole lot of lost sleep. Consequently, I too decided that I will never, ever do business with another factory in China. Not sure that is fair (as manufacturing problems happen everywhere), but it is what it is... Frankly, my story is useless - it is one entrepreneur's story of woe in a s…

Eh, I don't see this happening because China still has the big manufacturers, and they keep the big clients happy. Most of those manufacturers probably are good at building to spec, but would not entertain a small project like pen type a. That's what China is all about: mass (with a capital M) manufacturing. In pen type a's case, the up front costs and haggling are a major trouble but for an order serveral orders of…

Great points - thanks for your perspective! I think I got a little caught up in the cult of me....:)

Re: Pen Type-A: a cautionary tale of manufacturing in China

#28
post #24

Waiting for a bad experience with an American company so that they can swear off all United States based manufacturing and move everything to friendly Mexico.

In the US, you have more legal options. IIRC (and I'm not a lawyer), in China you are unlikely to be able to sue for more than what you paid. Chinese law can seem a lot more laisse faire compared to US law, unless they think you are in debt (and then you get imprisoned). Actually, it's not always laisse faire, it just looks that way because some things aren't enforced, and other things are - it's different, and your…

China is also notorious for "creative interpretations" of contracts that just happen to favor the Chinese company.

Re: Pen Type-A: a cautionary tale of manufacturing in China

#29
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, I don't see this happening because China still has the big manufacturers, and they keep the big clients happy. Most of those manufacturers probably are good at building to spec, but would not entertain a small project like pen type a. That's what China is all about: mass (with a capital M) manufacturing. In pen type a's case, the up front costs and haggling are a major trouble but for an order serveral orders of…

Great points - thanks for your perspective! I think I got a little caught up in the cult of me....:)

Not to detract from your point though, I do agree (and I'm fairly certain there are numbers somewhere to back this up) that the super-custom small batch manufacturing industry is alive and kicking in the US and other non-fareast countries because of exactly what you describe.
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