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Launch HN: Haystack (YC S24) – Visualize and edit code on an infinite canvas

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Re: Launch HN: Haystack (YC S24) – Visualize and edit code on an infinite canvas

#21

Post by akshaysg »

jitl wrote: post #11
candiddevmike wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So many YC folks are forking VSCode for various reasons that mostly revolve around "can't monetize extensions, want to own the platform". I don't think any of them will be successful, IMO. You want to be an extension because getting software approved is _hard_ at bigcos, it's much easier to trojan horse on an existing tool.

I think Cursor is already looking successful. Most VS Code people I know (including myself) have switched over. I love the idea of Haystack (I was a fan of Light Table back in the day) but if I have to pick between a better UI and an assistant who perform most simple code transforms by English language request, saving hour(s) per day, I’m picking the assistant.

Yeah the productivity optimization here makes sense. We intend to add generative AI features unique to the canvas UI as well to ensure our users don't lose productivity.

I am curious what features you like about Cursor the most? For me it's the CMD/CTRL+K -- I've had mixed experiences with the chat window and Composer.

Re: Launch HN: Haystack (YC S24) – Visualize and edit code on an infinite canvas

#22

Post by btown »

This is really, really cool!

On the licensing side, though:

> We’ve made the decision to make the editor source-available so that folks can make contributions and so that they can examine the code to make sure they can trust it.

This is a very reasonable intent, and it absolutely makes sense to preserve your options to monetize, but Polyform Strict https://polyformproject.org/licenses/strict/1.0.0/ , which you link to from your readme, seems to be far stronger than this intent.

The way I read that license, I cannot "make changes" even if I do not distribute those changes, not even changing a line of code on a version I'm running on my own computer, whether I'm using it for a commercial project or not. So contributors, it seems, would be limited to raising issues but not PRs? And it's unclear what applies as commercial use - if I'm using Haystack on a commercial codebase, and I encounter a bug that triggers on that codebase, and want to use the Haystack source code to understand what's going on to further my commercial purpose, would that be an unlicensed use of the source code?

Now, make no mistake - this is in no ways worse than the prior status quo of Haystack being closed-source. And I think you as a company should focus on building, with the certainty and comfort that this license, if anything, does err on the side of being restrictive. But some users, given this license, will be uncomfortable referring to the repository at all. I'll be one of those, but will still be excited to experiment with Haystack as a binary distribution nonetheless!

(Not a lawyer, this is not legal advice!)

Re: Launch HN: Haystack (YC S24) – Visualize and edit code on an infinite canvas

#23

Post by yatvij »

valianter wrote: post #19

I get that this is a completely new idea so adoption is going to be slow but I'm curious to see how your user interviews and user research is going. I'm a young dev but I'm not even sure if I would use this because the way I've learned to code is already so ingrained into the traditional IDE. Nevertheless, congrats on the launch!

Jake from Haystack here! Thanks for the interest. We've been doing a lot of user interviews with folks on our discord (and folks we know in real life) to understand issues in the onboarding process, find problems that make people churn off, etc with the long-term goal of increasing retention. A lot of our time lately has been spent on fixing these bugs and improving the new-user experience. As a result of this we found that retention on later launches got much better!

Re: Launch HN: Haystack (YC S24) – Visualize and edit code on an infinite canvas

#24

Post by akshaysg »

btown wrote: post #22

This is really, really cool! On the licensing side, though: > We’ve made the decision to make the editor source-available so that folks can make contributions and so that they can examine the code to make sure they can trust it. This is a very reasonable intent, and it absolutely makes sense to preserve your options to monetize, but Polyform Strict https://polyformproject.org/licenses/strict/1.0.0/ , which you link t…

Hmm I'll take a look at other licenses to see if there's one that expresses our intent in clearer language.

The intent is that you should be able to make PRs, examine the source code, but not distribute Haystack for commercial reasons.

I believe the license should allow you make PRs and examine code (even in commercial settings), but I'll take a more in-depth look.

Thank you for raising this to my attention!

Re: Launch HN: Haystack (YC S24) – Visualize and edit code on an infinite canvas

#25

Post by akshaysg »

valianter wrote: post #19

I get that this is a completely new idea so adoption is going to be slow but I'm curious to see how your user interviews and user research is going. I'm a young dev but I'm not even sure if I would use this because the way I've learned to code is already so ingrained into the traditional IDE. Nevertheless, congrats on the launch!

Yeah just to add onto what Jake said -- in our user interviews we found that folks, even those who are pretty used to old IDEs, do get the hang of Haystack pretty fast. However, developers are very idiosyncratic, so we frequently get pain points that are real problems but are also highly unique to each developer, which is interesting!

Re: Launch HN: Haystack (YC S24) – Visualize and edit code on an infinite canvas

#26

Post by akshaysg »

xixixao wrote: post #16

Congrats on the launch. It is an “obvious” idea, in a good way. Agree that minimizing the effort in constructing the workspace will be key. I’d also love to try a sort-of 3D stack for caller/callee relationship, zooming in and out. The code really is a graph (not acyclic though), and I think visualizing it that way can be helpful.

I'd love to learn more about what you're envisioning for the caller/callee relationship here! Do you mean recursively show callers/callees as you zoom out?

Re: Launch HN: Haystack (YC S24) – Visualize and edit code on an infinite canvas

#27

Post by faramarz »

Very cool. I imagined my organizations entire codebase being mapped like this and across different frameworks and languages.

I don’t know if I missed this in the video or if it’s not yet possible, but that’s a lot of manual work, so instead of connecting the nodes, give a simple bot to run in the repo folder to automate the visualization.

It’s super cool and I’m adding to my watch list.

If I were you, i’d target enterprise organizations or local municipalities IT groups who are going through or planning their digital transformations. They have a need for way-finding and sense making across legacy and new work.

If you play your cards right, Salesforce will come knocking in under a year. I see a lot of compatibility with their vision and product offerings.

Re: Launch HN: Haystack (YC S24) – Visualize and edit code on an infinite canvas

#30

Post by akshaysg »

aappleby wrote: post #28

What happens when I have 10,000 or so editors open at once?

I've actually never tried this (it'll probably take awhile to get to this point). Feel free to try it out and report back the results -- I'm curious as well!
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