X working again in Brazil as Elon Musk finds way around ban (using Cloudflare) • Hacker News Board

Re: X working again in Brazil as Elon Musk finds way around ban (using Cloudflare)

#21

Post by Qem » Thu, Sep 19, 2024, 1:15 PM UTC

PauloManrique wrote: post #15

Rzor wrote: post #9

Why didn't Musk attempt the same when India and Turkey did their version of it? Is Brazil worse than them? >In India, which is immersed in an autocratic drift that for months has been choking the media, journalists and critical voices, Twitter has also seconded government bans. To justify the consent, Musk said: “The rules in India for what can appear on social media are quite strict, and we can’t go beyond the laws…

Because those countries have laws that back their decisions. We don't. We are a democracy, we have laws - and there are no laws that allows the decisions this judge is taking. Elon is not questioning our laws, or India or Turkey. He is questioning that the judge is not following our laws and he's right.

Brazilian Marco Civil da Internet[1], the local Internet law, stipulates providers must provide records if presented a court order (Art. 10, § 1º). It also says (Art. 12) failure to comply may lead to the following sanctions, in that order: I - formal warning, II - fines up to controlling group 10% total revenue, III - temporary suspension and IV - activity shutdown at last. So in fact there is proper legal coverage.

[1]. https://www.planalto.gov.br/ccivil_03/_ato2011-2014/2014/lei...

Re: X working again in Brazil as Elon Musk finds way around ban (using Cloudflare)

#22

Post by PauloManrique » Thu, Sep 19, 2024, 1:54 PM UTC

taylodl wrote: post #19

PauloManrique wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I know people are cheering Musk's breaking the law He's not breaking the law, the judge is. There are no laws in Brazil that back his decisions.

The case went to the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court backed the judge's decision. Also, Brazil's Congress can remove the judge from the bench, and they have not. Given that state of affairs, how do you claim the judge is breaking the law?

The judge itself is a supreme court justice. Yes, the Brazilian senate can remove the judge, but the current government backs the judge and give money to congress members to use in their constituency, in returns to get their vote on issues, and that includes to prevent the impeachment of the judge.

So yes, the judge is breaking the law, simply because there's nothing in the law that says, for example, that the punishment for something, is the suspension of their social network profile.

That would be analog for cutting the vocal cords of a person that commits an opinion crime. It would be wrong IF we have that in our laws, but we don't.

If someone commit a crime, you punish for the crime. If they commit again, you increase the punishment and so on. There's nothing that can be done to prevent someone on commiting an opinion crime.

Re: X working again in Brazil as Elon Musk finds way around ban (using Cloudflare)

#23

Post by PauloManrique » Thu, Sep 19, 2024, 1:56 PM UTC

Qem wrote: post #21

PauloManrique wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because those countries have laws that back their decisions. We don't. We are a democracy, we have laws - and there are no laws that allows the decisions this judge is taking. Elon is not questioning our laws, or India or Turkey. He is questioning that the judge is not following our laws and he's right.

Brazilian Marco Civil da Internet[1], the local Internet law, stipulates providers must provide records if presented a court order (Art. 10, § 1º). It also says (Art. 12) failure to comply may lead to the following sanctions, in that order: I - formal warning, II - fines up to controlling group 10% total revenue, III - temporary suspension and IV - activity shutdown at last. So in fact there is proper legal coverage.…

This part of the Marco Civil talks about logs, and that's not what the judge is requesting. The judge is requesting that social network profiles to be taken down, without telling the person that got the profile taken down the reason - which removes their ability to defend theirselves in the court.

Re: X working again in Brazil as Elon Musk finds way around ban (using Cloudflare)

#24

Post by Qem » Thu, Sep 19, 2024, 2:30 PM UTC

PauloManrique wrote: post #23

Qem wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brazilian Marco Civil da Internet[1], the local Internet law, stipulates providers must provide records if presented a court order (Art. 10, § 1º). It also says (Art. 12) failure to comply may lead to the following sanctions, in that order: I - formal warning, II - fines up to controlling group 10% total revenue, III - temporary suspension and IV - activity shutdown at last. So in fact there is proper legal coverage.…

This part of the Marco Civil talks about logs, and that's not what the judge is requesting. The judge is requesting that social network profiles to be taken down, without telling the person that got the profile taken down the reason - which removes their ability to defend theirselves in the court.

IIRC the reasons are detailed in a document[1] that was already shared here before. TL;DR - It appears after the January 8 coup d'état attempt in Brazil, it was opened an investigation to identify who coordinated and who participated in the coup. Then some xitter profiles started a coordinated threat and doxxing campaign against police investigators who took this case. So the brazilian supreme court ordered xitter to provide information and block seven profiles involved in this doxxing campaign, what it refused to do.

[1]. https://static.poder360.com.br/2024/09/decisao-stf-x.pdf (Portuguese)

Re: X working again in Brazil as Elon Musk finds way around ban (using Cloudflare)

#25

Post by taylodl » Thu, Sep 19, 2024, 3:42 PM UTC

PauloManrique wrote: post #22

taylodl wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The case went to the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court backed the judge's decision. Also, Brazil's Congress can remove the judge from the bench, and they have not. Given that state of affairs, how do you claim the judge is breaking the law?

The judge itself is a supreme court justice. Yes, the Brazilian senate can remove the judge, but the current government backs the judge and give money to congress members to use in their constituency, in returns to get their vote on issues, and that includes to prevent the impeachment of the judge. So yes, the judge is breaking the law, simply because there's nothing in the law that says, for example, that the punish…

> but the current government backs the judge and give money to congress members to use in their constituency, in returns to get their vote on issues, and that includes to prevent the impeachment of the judge

In other words, the judge is not breaking the law.

What I think I'm hearing you say is you disagree with your checks-and-balances government's application of law, local attempts to change that law has failed for reasons, so now you support vigilantism in order to get around the law you believe was misapplied. And you support a foreign entity to enact that vigilantism on the populace's behalf?

Be careful. Brazil isn't recognized as being an authoritarian regime. You may support Musk is breaking this law, but you may not be very happy with what law(s) he decides to break next.

Re: X working again in Brazil as Elon Musk finds way around ban (using Cloudflare)

#26

Post by raul-pilla » Thu, Sep 19, 2024, 10:18 PM UTC

taylodl wrote: post #25

PauloManrique wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The judge itself is a supreme court justice. Yes, the Brazilian senate can remove the judge, but the current government backs the judge and give money to congress members to use in their constituency, in returns to get their vote on issues, and that includes to prevent the impeachment of the judge. So yes, the judge is breaking the law, simply because there's nothing in the law that says, for example, that the punish…

> but the current government backs the judge and give money to congress members to use in their constituency, in returns to get their vote on issues, and that includes to prevent the impeachment of the judge In other words, the judge is not breaking the law. What I think I'm hearing you say is you disagree with your checks-and-balances government's application of law, local attempts to change that law has failed for…

What a strange thing to say.

Re: X working again in Brazil as Elon Musk finds way around ban (using Cloudflare)

#27

Post by PauloManrique » Fri, Sep 20, 2024, 7:20 AM UTC

taylodl wrote: post #25

PauloManrique wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The judge itself is a supreme court justice. Yes, the Brazilian senate can remove the judge, but the current government backs the judge and give money to congress members to use in their constituency, in returns to get their vote on issues, and that includes to prevent the impeachment of the judge. So yes, the judge is breaking the law, simply because there's nothing in the law that says, for example, that the punish…

> but the current government backs the judge and give money to congress members to use in their constituency, in returns to get their vote on issues, and that includes to prevent the impeachment of the judge In other words, the judge is not breaking the law. What I think I'm hearing you say is you disagree with your checks-and-balances government's application of law, local attempts to change that law has failed for…

> In other words, the judge is not breaking the law.

This doesn't even make sense, the fact congress doesn't do it's job does not mean the judge is not breaking the law.

> What I think I'm hearing you say is you disagree with your checks-and-balances government's application of law, local attempts to change that law has failed for reasons, so now you support vigilantism in order to get around the law you believe was misapplied.

There are no applications of the law, they are just not doing their job period. And "vigilantism" is exactly what the judge is doing.

> Be careful. Brazil isn't recognized as being an authoritarian regime.

It just takes one 10 minutes to learn that Brazilian has an authoritarian justice system.

Re: X working again in Brazil as Elon Musk finds way around ban (using Cloudflare)

#28

Post by PauloManrique » Fri, Sep 20, 2024, 7:23 AM UTC

Qem wrote: post #24

PauloManrique wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This part of the Marco Civil talks about logs, and that's not what the judge is requesting. The judge is requesting that social network profiles to be taken down, without telling the person that got the profile taken down the reason - which removes their ability to defend theirselves in the court.

IIRC the reasons are detailed in a document[1] that was already shared here before. TL;DR - It appears after the January 8 coup d'état attempt in Brazil, it was opened an investigation to identify who coordinated and who participated in the coup. Then some xitter profiles started a coordinated threat and doxxing campaign against police investigators who took this case. So the brazilian supreme court ordered xitter to…

> It appears after the January 8 coup d'état attempt in Brazil

There was no attempt of coup d'état in Brazil, just a bunch of stupid people protesting and breaking public buldings, just like several other groups, for different reasons did the same in the past.

> it was opened an investigation

The investigation itself is illegal, because it's investigating people that should not be investigated by that branch of justice. Our supreme court only judges constitutional matters and politicians on the federal level, not regular citizens.

> Then some xitter profiles started a coordinated threat and doxxing campaign against police investigators who took this case.

That's also false, nobody ever attacked the police.

> So the brazilian supreme court ordered xitter to provide information and block seven profiles involved in this doxxing campaign, what it refused to do.

Which there are no base in the law, which it's the problem being pointed here.

Unlike "Common Law" countries, in Brazil judges can only do what the law says they can do. There's absolutely NOWHERE in our law, that says if someone commits something, their social network profile will be blocked.

Re: X working again in Brazil as Elon Musk finds way around ban (using Cloudflare)

#29

Post by PauloManrique » Fri, Sep 20, 2024, 7:29 AM UTC

raul-pilla wrote: post #26

taylodl wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but the current government backs the judge and give money to congress members to use in their constituency, in returns to get their vote on issues, and that includes to prevent the impeachment of the judge In other words, the judge is not breaking the law. What I think I'm hearing you say is you disagree with your checks-and-balances government's application of law, local attempts to change that law has failed for…

What a strange thing to say.

It literally makes zero sense.

Re: X working again in Brazil as Elon Musk finds way around ban (using Cloudflare)

#30

Post by taylodl » Fri, Sep 20, 2024, 12:50 PM UTC

PauloManrique wrote: post #29

raul-pilla wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a strange thing to say.

It literally makes zero sense.

If the Supreme Court says the decision is in accordance with law - and they're the ones with the legal authority to make that assessment, and the Congress has done nothing to reprimand the Supreme Court and overrule their assessment, then the judge's decision, by definition, is in accordance with law.

The problem as I see it is you disagree with that assessment.

People disagree in democracies, it's a defining feature. There are good reasons to disagree with the judge's decision and its legality. That doesn't change the fact that the people having the power vested in them by the state think otherwise and are supporting the decision.

Appealing to a vigilante like Musk to settle your internal disagreements is not a wise move, my friend.

Seek another path.