Live data from Hacker News

Americans Voted Their Way into a Housing Crisis

bloomberg.com

21–30 of 30 posts

Re: Americans Voted Their Way into a Housing Crisis

#21

America's housing situation continues to be zoning-driven. Cities where the jobs are located constrain housing supply via capricious zoning policies designed specifically to make housing more expensive. It is done to the benefit of existing landowners who vote for them, naturally, as landowners tend to be older, wealthier and voracious voters. Sure there's plenty of houses in Detroit but you can't commute from Detroi…

> I don't understand how progressives took up the mantle of "no more housing thanks we're good, let's just apply rent control" as if rent control actually helps. In the face of an expanding population this is outright regressive policy. Studies in SF show that it reduced supply and increased prices. [2] If you have enough supply, prices don't increase, so you don't need rent control.

I think this is mostly a caricature. Certainly there are people who don't understand the economics, but I think there are very few people who are saying "no more housing". However, what housing do we build and for whom? Who gets to live there and who profits? We're in this broken system where:

- local politicians do some amount of lip service to the need for affordable or below-market housing, and then roll back requirements for affordable unit percentages

- projects that get approved often find some way to reneg on their initial claims about how much of a project will be affordable, or do weird shenanigans like arrange to get their affordable units put in some other building, possibly in a different neighborhood. We have big affordable projects landing in Treasure Island (there's no public transit to speak of, the soil is toxic, and it's a food desert). I don't have the receipts on this, but I've been told some of the affordable units on Treasure Island were to let buildings on Yerba Buena meet their requirements without actually having BMR units in the building. Cuz rich people don't want to use the same elevator as non-rich people?

- a bunch of the "affordable" units don't make any financial sense and are effectively inaccessible, e.g. b/c the HOA fees mean that someone who meets the income requirements can't cover the mortgage + HOA + taxes.

- we have, depending on estimates, >52k vacant units in the city, including many luxury condos, which I think makes people reasonably skeptical about the efficacy of "trickle-down" housing making stuff accessible to people at the lower end of the market.

... so a new building might need to have 12% affordable units (they'll round down) which they'll try to put in the worst place they can find, and people who meet the income requirements to buy them may not even be able to actually afford them.

Meanwhile, Parcel K in Hayes Valley, despite having been designated for affordable housing for literally decades, has seen no development and many who have historically claimed the YIMBY label advocate against building housing there, because the people who can already afford the neighborhood prefer it as an open space.

In that context, I think most new residential buildings are extremely ineffective as a response to the housing affordability crisis. If they're not good at housing people who can't already get housing, what are they good at? I guess in some years they make money, which is, after all, what they were designed for. A progressive stance of wanting to build housing that more directly meets the greatest need, rather than more luxury units that rich people no longer want to buy, seems totally appropriate.

Also, when the price of market-rate vacant condos drops below the per-unit construction cost for affordable units (which I've heard is often > 1M), the city should have some mechanism to buy them at market rate and convert them to BMRs.

Re: Americans Voted Their Way into a Housing Crisis

#22
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't understand how progressives took up the mantle of "no more housing thanks we're good, let's just apply rent control" Because everyone is a YIMBY until until they own a SFH house in a nice neighborhood and a proposal to plop a Section 8 high rise next door comes up. Much the same way that sanctuary cities are "pro sanctuary" until tens of thousands of "asylum seekers" show up. It turns out there there actual…

> Because everyone is a YIMBY until until they own a SFH house in a nice neighborhood and a proposal to plop a Section 8 high rise next door comes up. I would argue that is because you’re buying with the wrong intention. If you just want a place to live, rather than expecting insane home appreciation that we have seen in the last decade, then I doubt this would be as much of an issue. Personally, I think it’s because…

I'm firmly in the "I don't want anyone living on top of me" camp now. I'm in an older building (built in the early 1900s). I can hear the people upstairs talking at a normal level. I can hear their TV at a normal level. I have to wear earplugs to avoid getting woken up by the creaking of the floor (they are not as ... svelte as the previous people). I hear their phone when it buzzes if they have on the table. This is definitely a HCOL area, and my rent, which I think is substantially under market value, would pay for a mortgage on a nice house pretty much anywhere else in the country. So, I'll be moving when my lease is up, and it will be a SFH unless the property can demonstrate that I won't be able to hear my neighbors. (Plus, I want to plant a nice English country garden in the back yard.)

Re: Americans Voted Their Way into a Housing Crisis

#23
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because everyone is a YIMBY until until they own a SFH house in a nice neighborhood and a proposal to plop a Section 8 high rise next door comes up. I would argue that is because you’re buying with the wrong intention. If you just want a place to live, rather than expecting insane home appreciation that we have seen in the last decade, then I doubt this would be as much of an issue. Personally, I think it’s because…

I'm firmly in the "I don't want anyone living on top of me" camp now. I'm in an older building (built in the early 1900s). I can hear the people upstairs talking at a normal level. I can hear their TV at a normal level. I have to wear earplugs to avoid getting woken up by the creaking of the floor (they are not as ... svelte as the previous people). I hear their phone when it buzzes if they have on the table. This is…

> I'm in an older building (built in the early 1900s). I can hear the people upstairs talking at a normal level.

> This is definitely a HCOL area, and my rent, which I think is substantially under market value

But that’s exactly it, right? Because it’s under market value they don’t get enough revenue to do things like proper sound isolation. I live in a modern apartment where there is no rent control, and I have none of these problems.

And I think the rent you pay will pay for mortgage somewhere else because the relative income is low in that area. How much more do you have to pay to get a mortgage in a similar area?

Re: Americans Voted Their Way into a Housing Crisis

#24
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't understand how progressives took up the mantle of "no more housing thanks we're good, let's just apply rent control" Because everyone is a YIMBY until until they own a SFH house in a nice neighborhood and a proposal to plop a Section 8 high rise next door comes up. Much the same way that sanctuary cities are "pro sanctuary" until tens of thousands of "asylum seekers" show up. It turns out there there actual…

> Because everyone is a YIMBY until until they own a SFH house in a nice neighborhood and a proposal to plop a Section 8 high rise next door comes up. I would argue that is because you’re buying with the wrong intention. If you just want a place to live, rather than expecting insane home appreciation that we have seen in the last decade, then I doubt this would be as much of an issue. Personally, I think it’s because…

> If you just want a place to live, rather than expecting insane home appreciation

You're focusing on the wrong thing here. What motivates someone to not one day unexpectedly become neighbors with a Section 8 building is not primarily about property values, but rather avoiding the increase in crime and blight that will follow.

Re: Americans Voted Their Way into a Housing Crisis

#25

America's housing situation continues to be zoning-driven. Cities where the jobs are located constrain housing supply via capricious zoning policies designed specifically to make housing more expensive. It is done to the benefit of existing landowners who vote for them, naturally, as landowners tend to be older, wealthier and voracious voters. Sure there's plenty of houses in Detroit but you can't commute from Detroi…

> Cities where the jobs are located constrain housing supply via capricious zoning policies designed specifically to make housing more expensive. California is largely a special snowflake where you can have your property value go to infinity and there is NO penalty to you (your taxes only go up a max of 2%, which is less than inflation). It seems like a trend that voters are moving their states and jurisdictions to a…

> special snowflake neighborhood ... they give negative f#cks about anyone moving in and not being able to afford even a shoebox ... they could not care less about your struggles ... James Bond villains

This is an extreme (and common) example of black-and-white vitriol on this topic. The reality is that it is very reasonable to highly desire a "neighborhood that is walkable and quiet and close to everything, where they have space to park their car and play with their kids in the yard", and often a person's dream is not even that whole set of features. This desire is especially reasonable if you have committed a lot of your life choices to achieving that dream. The dream is strong in part because this lifestyle was within reasonable reach across many parts of the country for so many decades that it became synonymous with the very name of our nation. On the spectrum of things a person can want, this is definitely not on the "selfish seeming" end where baser things like fame, wealth, and power reside. Just because it is becoming less and less attainable doesn't mean a typical human will suddenly switch to, "oh well, I won't fight for that dream any more then." Multiply that fighting spirit by ten for people who have already finally won the dream and see it being taken away. It will take a very long time for that cultural transition to finish, assuming we keep going in this direction. Economic pragmatism can only inform the human spirit so much.

That's one half of what you said. The other is how we feel about other people. You can chase or attain the dream and vote in a way that preserves the qualities of your community that you fought for, and still have sympathy for others who don't have that kind of community. There is no cognitive dissonance there. Critically, it's important here to understand that there is a difference between, on the one hand, new people wanting to live somewhere because of the current distribution of job opportunities, regardless of how much more dense it must become for more people to live there, and, on the other hand, simply needing quality housing, which is both a much more impactful and much more fixable problem.

Like you (almost) said, for the vast majority of the people you are criticizing, it has nothing to do with home value. People want to live and die in neighborly, safe, clean communities with what feels historically to an American like a "little bit" of room to exist, and not be forced out of their homes by large increases in tax. People really, really want those things. And that's a reasonable thing for a human to fight for, even if it's becoming less and less attainable as the image of the future continues to develop. I.e. you're letting the shitty situation provoke you into harshly antagonizing reasonable people.

Re: Americans Voted Their Way into a Housing Crisis

#26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cities where the jobs are located constrain housing supply via capricious zoning policies designed specifically to make housing more expensive. California is largely a special snowflake where you can have your property value go to infinity and there is NO penalty to you (your taxes only go up a max of 2%, which is less than inflation). It seems like a trend that voters are moving their states and jurisdictions to a…

> special snowflake neighborhood ... they give negative f#cks about anyone moving in and not being able to afford even a shoebox ... they could not care less about your struggles ... James Bond villains This is an extreme (and common) example of black-and-white vitriol on this topic. The reality is that it is very reasonable to highly desire a "neighborhood that is walkable and quiet and close to everything, where th…

> The dream is strong in part because this lifestyle was within reasonable reach across many parts of the country for so many decades that it became synonymous with the very name of our nation.

No, it was not.

1920s Chicago was a gross polluted mess hardly anyone in the US would want to live in today. Ditto for any major city in the US.

By the 1980s you were already deep into the modern car-era dystopia where the highways had been built and barely anything, anywhere in the US was walkable (far less places than you have today).

In between then, you have White Flight - which you wouldn't have had if the city was this Utopian paradise where everyone could easily afford a quite, walkable, cute home right next to everything.

If there was some brief point in time where everyone could easily a afford cute Craftsman in downtown Menlo Park on a part-time salary at the meat packing plant, it was VERY brief.

Since 1985 - wages are up 3.2x and rents are up 4.9x. The major difference is that you used to be able to rent an apartment in the city for cheap, and now you can't, because the city used to be dangerous and gross, and now it's not.

There is a reason why "everyone" wanted to buy a house in a suburban development 40 years ago, and why "everyone" wants to buy something in the city now.

"everyone" is in quotes before some special snowflake says - but my parents liked living in the city 40 years ago! And I want to start my own communal farm in the countryside now!

Re: Americans Voted Their Way into a Housing Crisis

#27

Having RTFA: I think it's an interesting take to centralize zoning at the state level. Houston (which has no zoning ordinances) is a terrible place to live, but it's definitely an affordable place to live. The incentives at a state level around housing might actually balance differently because at that level economic activity, jobs, etc. matter more than property taxes. Something that isn't often mentioned, because t…

> This still encourages these states to drive up property values because it tempts you into cashing out via selling. Every state with this sort of cap also immediately reassesses real estate to the price it sells at the following year. A high property value versus the tax assessment is just a deferred revenue stream, so it's a driver to encourage consistent turnover in the market. The only real way to do that is to constantly drive prices up, which drives the cost of living up, which turns over the residents faster.

Many states (like WA) are on the budget system for property taxes: your assessed value effects your share of the taxes, but the overall property tax take is fixed. So if the property market booms or crashes, the amount collected is still the same. Playing around with freezing/capping assessments will only change how the tax burden is distributed (well, if it freezes for everyone then nothing really changes).

WA also pools property tax revenue for schools, which means richer western Washington districts subsidize poorer easter Washington districts. People still move around to be in the better school districts, however, since the advantages of those schools go beyond funding.

Re: Americans Voted Their Way into a Housing Crisis

#28
post #4

America's housing situation continues to be zoning-driven. Cities where the jobs are located constrain housing supply via capricious zoning policies designed specifically to make housing more expensive. It is done to the benefit of existing landowners who vote for them, naturally, as landowners tend to be older, wealthier and voracious voters. Sure there's plenty of houses in Detroit but you can't commute from Detroi…

> via capricious zoning policies designed specifically to make housing more expensive This coincides with treating housing as an investment. Older generations (even Gen X) will flaunt how great it is that their house went up by X% in the last 5 years. It completely ignores that housing is meant to keep a roof over your head and not be treated as a spreadsheet line item in your portfolio.

> Older generations (even Gen X) will flaunt how great it is that their house went up by X% in the last 5 years.

We really don't though. If we sell our house, we have to buy another, and they have risen in price also. Basically, buying into the home market allows you to just keep your head above water, you can't actually get rich unless you sell your house and move to a cheaper real estate market, or you decide to speculate in property outside of your primary residence.

Re: Americans Voted Their Way into a Housing Crisis

#29

Having RTFA: I think it's an interesting take to centralize zoning at the state level. Houston (which has no zoning ordinances) is a terrible place to live, but it's definitely an affordable place to live. The incentives at a state level around housing might actually balance differently because at that level economic activity, jobs, etc. matter more than property taxes. Something that isn't often mentioned, because t…

Houston does not have zoning ordinances but it does have zoning-type regulations. https://kinder.rice.edu/urbanedge/houston-doesnt-have-zoning...

> Virtually every affluent residential neighborhood in Houston has strict private deed restrictions — and, remarkably many of those deed restrictions can be enforced by the city. ...

> Some neighborhoods are in effect using historic districts as a zoning substitute. ...

> Several years ago, the city also created a process by which residents and neighborhoods could petition for a minimum lot size or minimum building line, or setback from the street. ...

Or from https://therealdeal.com/texas/2023/03/16/dont-say-the-z-word...

> This lack of zoning has resulted in Houston using other legal and governance mechanisms, such as ordinances, a building code and deed restrictions to impose rules that function as a form of de facto zoning.

Re: Americans Voted Their Way into a Housing Crisis

#30
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect some feel it's progressive in one particular sense, that it appears to allocate a scarce resource (housing -- but why's it scarce in the first place?) on the basis of something other than wealth : tenure (e.g., prop 13, rent control's caps on rent increases), involuntary--or voluntary--penury (e.g., section 8, affordable housing mandates), or some other notion of "deserving" (e.g., subsidies for housing for…

If you aren’t breaking down the status quo and moving toward something more equitable, in what way is it progressive? I don’t believe “feel good” equates to progressive - maybe more affirmative? As a renter of course I prefer areas that have rent control, but I understand that it’s not smart economic policy. Zoning isn’t smart economic policy either but I feel like it gets far more flak because it benefits the haves…

I didn't use the phrase "feel good" but rent control can totally be justified on equity grounds: a policy that protects the vulnerable from (effectively) eviction by "market forces" (read: rising rents) over which they have no control.

That's not wrong, in the most direct sense rent control policies are doing that, but it's not the whole story either (as it sounds like you know).

Post reply on HN