Live data from Hacker News

Authenticated Boot and Disk Encryption on Linux (2021)

0pointer.net

21–30 of 75 posts

Re: Authenticated Boot and Disk Encryption on Linux (2021)

#21
post #5

> the attacker takes the harddisk from your laptop while you aren't watching > You'll never notice they did that. Won't you be safe if you put a colorful nail polish to your laptop screws and take picture of its pattern? Then you regularly compare the actual pattern with your picture.

I have a laptop with a soldered in disk! Check mate mofo! All for our safety of course!

Hello, this is a security auditor. Could you please confirm items on the following checklist?

1. A BIOS password exists, with at least 8 characters, not based on a single dictionary word or keyboard-run sequence, and not easily guessable in other ways.

2. Booting an OS from any non-default device requires entering the BIOS password.

3. GRUB entry for bringing up the firmware configuration does not bypass the password.

4. GRUB itself has a password defined, with similar password strength requirements.

5. Editing the kernel command line or accessing the raw GRUB command prompt requires the password and, likewise, cannot be used to boot kernel/initrd pairs from external media.

Re: Authenticated Boot and Disk Encryption on Linux (2021)

#22

> Instead of stealing your laptop the attacker takes the harddisk from your laptop while you aren't watching [...] makes a copy of it, and then puts it back. I've never understood why people keep making this incredibly weak argument for secure boot. Secure boot makes sense for a college computer lab, where any disk encryption is better than nothing, and you can't give everyone the password or it'd defeat the point. S…

> Secure boot makes sense if you're a Microsoft-only company Yes, the author is actually working at MS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lennart_Poettering

And the author worked at Redhat when he wrote the article in 2021.

Re: Authenticated Boot and Disk Encryption on Linux (2021)

#23
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Secure boot makes sense if you're a Microsoft-only company Yes, the author is actually working at MS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lennart_Poettering

And the author worked at Redhat when he wrote the article in 2021.

Yes, but there were suspicions that he was involved with MS at that time, I heard.

Re: Authenticated Boot and Disk Encryption on Linux (2021)

#25

> Instead of stealing your laptop the attacker takes the harddisk from your laptop while you aren't watching [...] makes a copy of it, and then puts it back. I've never understood why people keep making this incredibly weak argument for secure boot. Secure boot makes sense for a college computer lab, where any disk encryption is better than nothing, and you can't give everyone the password or it'd defeat the point. S…

> Secure boot makes sense if you're a Microsoft-only company Yes, the author is actually working at MS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lennart_Poettering

Makes sense. Big Tech are the only ones pushing for Secure Boot because it gives them control over our machines. With that they will be able to garden-wall our PCs the same way they do with our phones.

Re: Authenticated Boot and Disk Encryption on Linux (2021)

#26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Secure boot makes sense if you're a Microsoft-only company Yes, the author is actually working at MS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lennart_Poettering

Makes sense. Big Tech are the only ones pushing for Secure Boot because it gives them control over our machines. With that they will be able to garden-wall our PCs the same way they do with our phones.

Fortunately, my phone (Librem 5) doesn't obey the Big Tech. Neither does my Laptop.

Re: Authenticated Boot and Disk Encryption on Linux (2021)

#27
Lennart is technically doing good work. While his tools are less complicated than the current hilariously convoluted standard boot process, they are still too complicated to use well.

He also misses the point with the attack scenarios. If you luks encrypt your data and choose a good passphrase, the brunt is done against theft. Protecting against bad passwords is futile in the long run. (Will elaborate if requested.) That someone images your drive for offline bruteforce or manipulates your boot binaries is rare. The true benefit of signed boot chain is to have security patches work reteoactively, "compromise recovery". Automated attacks and malware from the internet side are way more common.

Imagine one of your daemons is compromised. As long as it does not escalate privileges, it can only gain persistence via corruptable data files or config accessible to itself. Now a patch comes along that closes the hole that reinfects the daemon. The malware will not start on daemon restart.

With signed booting you can bring that to the kernel and root.

Signed booting with rollback protection into a known good state. As long as the malware is not part of that system it won't run on launch.

But who signs my stuff, especially my own scripts and automation? Me of course, if I had good tooling.

If that became normal malware would just steal the key.

A TPM or other keybearer device lets you conditionally unlock a signing key.

So to sign, you can boot your system into a runlevel / target / ... that does not run auxiliary scripts from writable locations. If that state is measured by the TPM, you can sign.

With good enough tooling this is workable.

If implemented well, this even helps maintenance of the system.

In the state of things now, its a horrible convoluted mess that doesnt give extra security but 10 more points at which you can break your boot.

+ UEFI itself is again a complexity monster full of holes on very many machines. The whole x86 preboot stack amd or intel is a horrible complexity monster.

Re: Authenticated Boot and Disk Encryption on Linux (2021)

#28

Lennart is technically doing good work. While his tools are less complicated than the current hilariously convoluted standard boot process, they are still too complicated to use well. He also misses the point with the attack scenarios. If you luks encrypt your data and choose a good passphrase, the brunt is done against theft. Protecting against bad passwords is futile in the long run. (Will elaborate if requested.)…

Shoutout to Heads for even attempting to make this. But even that is far from complete. At least the UX is a little better than standard.

Re: Authenticated Boot and Disk Encryption on Linux (2021)

#29
post #24

Is this for real? Is the initramfs not signed and authenticated? if that was the case it would be a very serious and obvious flaw I would have thought.

Since 2018, heads builds and ships with its own initramfs: https://heads.dyne.org/news/2018/03/release-04.html

Re: Authenticated Boot and Disk Encryption on Linux (2021)

#30

Lennart is technically doing good work. While his tools are less complicated than the current hilariously convoluted standard boot process, they are still too complicated to use well. He also misses the point with the attack scenarios. If you luks encrypt your data and choose a good passphrase, the brunt is done against theft. Protecting against bad passwords is futile in the long run. (Will elaborate if requested.)…

> But who signs my stuff, especially my own scripts and automation? Me of course, if I had good tooling.

There's already a mechanism, provided for DKMS - you enrol a 'Machine Owner Key' which only root can access, and any time you update your kernel (requiring you to recompile a kernel module), it gets signed with the MOK. Which of course means any malware that gains root access can sign itself too.

An alternative is that any time you update your kernel and reboot, things like the nvidia drivers would get disabled until you perform some special ceremony. Not that great for usability, we want people to install updates in a timely manner after all so we don't want to make it too inconvenient.

Another alternative is to only load code blessed by a Microsoft-approved Linux distro - the Ubuntu Core approach. But this requires abandoning the open source ethos.

Post reply on HN