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Are We Anti-Cheat Yet?

areweanticheatyet.com

21–30 of 197 posts

Re: Are We Anti-Cheat Yet?

#21
post #20
post #2

I don't know enough about 'real time' netcode for games. However I have read several HN articles over the years so I've got at least a basic understanding. Why can't the servers distrust the clients? What should a 'client side anti cheat' actually prevent? The way I think I'd tackle such things is to have multiple copies of each character model moving in different locations and different ways. Such that trying to spy…

> I don't know enough about X. However I have read several HN articles over the years so I've got at least a basic understanding. I'm sorry but this really does read like the start of a troll post.

Its just regular intellectual curiosity.

Re: Are We Anti-Cheat Yet?

#22
post #5
post #2

I don't know enough about 'real time' netcode for games. However I have read several HN articles over the years so I've got at least a basic understanding. Why can't the servers distrust the clients? What should a 'client side anti cheat' actually prevent? The way I think I'd tackle such things is to have multiple copies of each character model moving in different locations and different ways. Such that trying to spy…

> Why can't the servers distrust the clients? What should a 'client side anti cheat' actually prevent? There are two issues. One is the user seeing things that the server is hiding, such as enemies hidden behind obstacles, by going into "wireframe mode". The other is superhuman performance via computer assistance, or "aimbot hacks". The first is a performance issue. The server can do some occlusion culling to avoid t…

The only feasible solution is to have high-level players compete in physical tournaments or at verified centers, where the authenticity of the player is replaced with some authority. At a high enough level, there is no way to distinguish a really good player from a cheater.

Re: Are We Anti-Cheat Yet?

#23
post #8
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The client need to have more state info than the player to render accurately, for example, to render an opponent passing through a window without lag. And also, there are also cheat that doesn't need to spy on the state, like aim assist tool or HUD improvement.

* Pass through a window without lag - That's why the server is sending multiple copies of potential movements and paths through the level for each character, but terminating the ones that are about to reveal their effects (no longer be culled by walls / objects) when they'd send false information to non-cheating players. * Aim Assist - what's that supposed to work with for the assist? I guess it might help someone ta…

Aim Assist falls into a category of cheats that are more or less undetectable and unavoidable over the internet: skill assists for something a computer does better than a human. How central these are to the game depends on the game. For a game like Chess, the impact (of consulting a computer to suggest moves) is devastating, but the online community survives. I think it's typical in such communities for truly high stakes competition to happen in person, and for the online scene to be seen as more of a social / practice scene. I like this solution: prevent theft by reducing the value of what can be stolen.

Games that turn heavily on aiming have a similar central security flaw in that it is hard to prevent cheating at the game's central skill. (Though I think in the case of aimbots, sometimes webcams are substituted for LANs, with some success.)

On the other hand, some games are practically cheat-proof. A puzzle game in which you submit actual solutions doesn't require any trust of the client at all. CTF games generally run along these rules - almost anything you can do to solve the puzzle (googling, teaming up, writing tools, bringing AI assistants) is considered fair game. What might be considered a cheat in another context is just advancing the state of the art.

HUD improvements depend on the game. But as a simple example, I play a game where leading a moving target is a major skill; a HUD that gave you an aimpoint for a perfect intercept would be a pretty big cheat.

I think anti-cheat is one of those problem spaces where there is a danger of overemphasizing technical solutions to social problems. Technical solutions are nice, but there are also gaming experiences that are only practical on a private server, with friends, on the honor system. A wise friend once observed that removing griefers and jerks from a community also did a lot to address cheating. I think it is best thought of as a social problem first, though I agree it all depends on the context.

Re: Are We Anti-Cheat Yet?

#24
post #2

I don't know enough about 'real time' netcode for games. However I have read several HN articles over the years so I've got at least a basic understanding. Why can't the servers distrust the clients? What should a 'client side anti cheat' actually prevent? The way I think I'd tackle such things is to have multiple copies of each character model moving in different locations and different ways. Such that trying to spy…

well because realtime online multiplayer game need to be "FAST", I mean really fast sure if you develop platform today we can check token user now with hashtable we have in database but in games ?? You cant verify calculated damage numbers users gave, not fast enough

Sorry but I don't think you worked for a multiplayer game in the past 15 years. Verifying damage numbers is no-brainer. The programmers won't discuss "should we verify damage numbers" at all. It's the norm today.

Re: Are We Anti-Cheat Yet?

#25
post #2

I don't know enough about 'real time' netcode for games. However I have read several HN articles over the years so I've got at least a basic understanding. Why can't the servers distrust the clients? What should a 'client side anti cheat' actually prevent? The way I think I'd tackle such things is to have multiple copies of each character model moving in different locations and different ways. Such that trying to spy…

well because realtime online multiplayer game need to be "FAST", I mean really fast sure if you develop platform today we can check token user now with hashtable we have in database but in games ?? You cant verify calculated damage numbers users gave, not fast enough

You absolutely can do that and (almost) all games do that already.

This type of cheats are DECADES in the past.

Today is all about a) enhancing normal behavior with artificial precision, not making any 'illegal' (from game perspective) actions. b) giving player information he isn't supposed to have but that is passed to client for latency sake

Re: Are We Anti-Cheat Yet?

#26
post #2

I don't know enough about 'real time' netcode for games. However I have read several HN articles over the years so I've got at least a basic understanding. Why can't the servers distrust the clients? What should a 'client side anti cheat' actually prevent? The way I think I'd tackle such things is to have multiple copies of each character model moving in different locations and different ways. Such that trying to spy…

Delaying UI interaction until it has been verified by a server that runs at 20fps (60 is uncommon on servers unless theres no AI), with a RTT of 60 ms, means your hitmarker will take 110ms instead of 6ms if rendered locally.

Apply that to every interaction that the server has to be authoritative about, movement, reloading.

Your game will be unplayable.

And if you want to combat aimbotting: your viewport and hit point would have to be server authoritative too.

Basically: unless its Stadia or geforce now, this wont work.

Re: Are We Anti-Cheat Yet?

#27
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't know enough about X. However I have read several HN articles over the years so I've got at least a basic understanding. I'm sorry but this really does read like the start of a troll post.

Its just regular intellectual curiosity.

Sure, but you'll need to do more than "read several HN articles over the years" (presumably completely unrelated to anti-cheats?) to get even a basic understanding of how anti-cheats work, as he went on to demonstrate.

I also just thought it was unintentionally funny, like a comedic setup for a stereotypically cocky HN user to comment with great confidence on something way outside of their field of expertise. (not saying that's the case for mjevans)

Re: Are We Anti-Cheat Yet?

#28
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why can't the servers distrust the clients? What should a 'client side anti cheat' actually prevent? There are two issues. One is the user seeing things that the server is hiding, such as enemies hidden behind obstacles, by going into "wireframe mode". The other is superhuman performance via computer assistance, or "aimbot hacks". The first is a performance issue. The server can do some occlusion culling to avoid t…

The only feasible solution is to have high-level players compete in physical tournaments or at verified centers, where the authenticity of the player is replaced with some authority. At a high enough level, there is no way to distinguish a really good player from a cheater.

Disagree.

But it's not really feasible to argue since you need to be on such high level in the first place to honestly engage in 'is this player chesting' conversation. And it's on case-by-case basis

Re: Are We Anti-Cheat Yet?

#29
post #5
post #2

I don't know enough about 'real time' netcode for games. However I have read several HN articles over the years so I've got at least a basic understanding. Why can't the servers distrust the clients? What should a 'client side anti cheat' actually prevent? The way I think I'd tackle such things is to have multiple copies of each character model moving in different locations and different ways. Such that trying to spy…

> Why can't the servers distrust the clients? What should a 'client side anti cheat' actually prevent? There are two issues. One is the user seeing things that the server is hiding, such as enemies hidden behind obstacles, by going into "wireframe mode". The other is superhuman performance via computer assistance, or "aimbot hacks". The first is a performance issue. The server can do some occlusion culling to avoid t…

I’m big into competitive Call of Duty. On that game (and any other shooter that uses a controller), the biggest undetectable cheat is auto recoil adjust. People call it a “chronus” for the same reason people call it Kleenex. You download profiles for the gun you're using and it basically does the recoil pattern in reverse, turning every gun into a laser beam. It’s undetectable because it modifies inputs from a legit controller while appearing completely normal to the console/PC. No computer vision needed, and it’s destroying the integrity of the game.

In the future I kind of hope the handshake from controllerconsole becomes a lot more robust, maybe working in a similar way to HDCP.

Re: Are We Anti-Cheat Yet?

#30
post #19
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding HUD improvements, this monitor shows where enemies are likely to appear. The monitor does this autonomously; the OS isn't in the loop. https://www.tomshardware.com/monitors/msis-ai-powered-gaming...

That monitor seems to dynamically do things based on data the game legitimately shows a player. For some data, like the health bars, a skill / accessibility leveling feature might be to just let the user pick HOW the game displays that data, to customize the UI layout to their needs. Enemy position highlight based on the minimap vs present location? Yeah, that crosses a clear line, but it's abusing some data the game…

There is a fog-of-war mechanic, called 'vision'. In the game discussed in the monitor article (League of Legends), what is shown on the minimap is restricted to what your team can see at that moment.

The monitor is akin to having an experienced coach watch you play live. Is that also cheating? I think it is.

I also think it's impossible to detect, unless the player suddenly becomes extremely much better at the game. That's the best they can do to catch cheaters at chess. But chess is orders of magnitude easier to monitor, because the game state and input are small and simple.

When I first read about the monitor I realized that for many types of games cheating will become unstoppable. Although sad, the bright side is that it drove me away from online gaming even more, to the benefit of my overall health.

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