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Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

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Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#21

Post by danpalmer »

newaccount74 wrote: post #16

This is quite a one-sided take. What makes Telegram unique is: 1) They have access to almost all the content 2) They try to use arguments about jurisdiction to avoid helping law enforcement with lawful requests All the other messaging platforms (WhatsApp, Signal, iMessage) have started to use end-to-end encryption to avoid being in this position in the first place. But they also comply with law enforcement and share…

I found it interesting to read that their approach is supposedly to split encryption keys across jurisdictions. It sounds like they believe that they should therefore not be able to be compelled to reveal any plaintext because the keys are not in the jurisdiction asking for data, but as far as I can tell this is obviously rubbish, because a computer is not subject to the law, an individual is, and in this case an individual with the power to comply who is seemingly deciding not to.

What's weird is that there aren't really technical blockers to E2E encryption anymore (maybe different 10+ years ago), and with such a weak alternative, you'd expect Telegram to want to switch. The fact they haven't for so long, and have essentially doubled down on their flawed approach suggests that there's a reason we're not privy to as to why they don't want to move to E2E encryption. I'd hope not, and I don't want to throw around conspiracy theories, but when a decision doesn't make sense that's usually due to missing information, and I do wonder what we're missing.

Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#23

Post by daliusd »

cperciva wrote: post #11
tptacek wrote: post #3

This analysis leaves out the fact that Pavel Durov is, with Telegram, in approximately the same position Ladar Levison was with Lavabit. Unlike Meredith Whitaker, Durov actually is in a position to furnish documents to the French government, where he has citizenship. He's in that position because he has repeatedly made deliberate product decisions, to the bafflement of cryptographers around the world, to keep himself…

Indeed. Two of the more common questions I get with Tarsnap are Q. How do I know that Tarsnap is secure? A. Read the source code. Q. Ok, but you're really smart, what's stopping you from putting in a backdoor and hiding it really well? A. I don't want to get tortured, and ensuring that I can't decrypt your data protects *me*.

IMHO second answer does not hold water. If you will end up in situation where you are tortured they will torture you until you will you say how to add the backdoor.

Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#24

Post by tptacek »

daliusd wrote: post #23
cperciva wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. Two of the more common questions I get with Tarsnap are Q. How do I know that Tarsnap is secure? A. Read the source code. Q. Ok, but you're really smart, what's stopping you from putting in a backdoor and hiding it really well? A. I don't want to get tortured, and ensuring that I can't decrypt your data protects *me*.

IMHO second answer does not hold water. If you will end up in situation where you are tortured they will torture you until you will you say how to add the backdoor.

His point is that he can't backdoor it: you can read the code before you install it. I'd go further, and say that this is true of anything end-to-end encrypted, open-source or not, because it's not 2002 anymore and reversing ordinary client software is table stakes. (I'd still rather run something open source, ceteris paribus).

Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#25

Post by oaththrowaway »

pjerem wrote: post #19
sjdhdhdj wrote: post #10

[flagged]

Except Google is taking down any illegal data they are asked to takedown or to give to law enforcement. Durov is not arrested to have hosted illegal content but to deliberately have not do anything against it when asked to. If you did something illegal via Gmail and the law enforcement asked for your mails to Google, they’d give them. Telegram voluntarily did not. Note that Durov/Telegram could have been easily prote…

> Note that Durov/Telegram could have been easily protected against this by using E2E encryption and therefore not becoming the owner of the data on their servers.

How'd that work for Lavabit?

Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#26

Post by inopinatus »

tptacek wrote: post #24
daliusd wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMHO second answer does not hold water. If you will end up in situation where you are tortured they will torture you until you will you say how to add the backdoor.

His point is that he can't backdoor it: you can read the code before you install it. I'd go further, and say that this is true of anything end-to-end encrypted, open-source or not, because it's not 2002 anymore and reversing ordinary client software is table stakes. (I'd still rather run something open source, ceteris paribus).

Feeding the paranoia above is that cperciva would verifiably be the smartest person in the room. A canny torturer would respond to this bringing in djb as the primary instrument of torture. "First one to break or weaken scrypt or 8-round salsa20 gains their freedom". The loser is forced to give talks at AWS marketing conferences for the rest of their natural

Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#27

Post by cja »

Why are so many people taking this at face value? There's a war going on and the man in charge of the communications system for one side flew to try to meet his leader and then flew to an enemy country where there was a warrant for his arrest.

I'm not saying the French aren't serious about the charges they've published but they're hardly the main point.

There's plenty in the media about the use of Telegram by the the Russian military and intelligence services, as well as politicians. For example: https://www.politico.eu/article/telegram-ceo-arrest-pavel-du...

Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#28

Post by willsoon »

daliusd wrote: post #23
cperciva wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. Two of the more common questions I get with Tarsnap are Q. How do I know that Tarsnap is secure? A. Read the source code. Q. Ok, but you're really smart, what's stopping you from putting in a backdoor and hiding it really well? A. I don't want to get tortured, and ensuring that I can't decrypt your data protects *me*.

IMHO second answer does not hold water. If you will end up in situation where you are tortured they will torture you until you will you say how to add the backdoor.

No, he won't, because there is no back door. Or yes, because his torturer-contractor thinks there is. Either way, the last part of your sentence doesn't hold water.

Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#29

Post by willsoon »

pjerem wrote: post #12

> What it means is that European states are going to try to extraterritorially dictate to foreign companies what content those companies can and cannot host on foreign-based webservers It looks like the author failed to grab that Durov asked for the French nationality and therefore is a French citizen who must comply to French law. > Telegram is not the only company in the world which has a social media platform used…

>Legal request

A legal request comes from a legal authority: a judge.

>Cooperating with law enforcement

Law Enforcement (that's the police, right?) are not judges and are not authorised to rule on legal matters.

Hate has not logic.

So you are trying to cover the whole spectrum of things to ensure your belief that Durov is being legally detained.

Sorry for editing instead of answering. Reddit says I "post too fast".

Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#30

Post by necovek »

mediumsmart wrote: post #22

Thinking is not shitting Is there a difference between telegram and other social media messenger hybrids? Do they allow anti Russian content the same way they allow pro Russian content? Is that a problem?

Telegram is widely used in Ukraine too, and that includes a lot of anti-Russia material.
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